Hi, would like to do some tiles.

[Polak]

I would like to throw my support and some time and effort to work on terrain tiles for your theaters.

Perhaps on the start my preference would be ODS, or anything related to deserts. I have some (limited) experience in terrain / tilesets making for other simulations and made some of them already. You can view some of my work among the downloads for SF:P1 at Combatace as well as I have made some terrain repaints for MSFS, TAW and others.

I fully realize of rather significant amount of work needed to make the terrain, specially if one is to be satisfied from one's "artistic" work in computer generated terrains . However, I can see that here you have not only work out many interesting procedures and innovations in this field and, what is even more important to me, effectively and actively support and broaden this knowledge. I hope to contribute some of mine as well.

Give me some suggestions where could be of best service to your group.

[Snake Man]

ODS already has nice tiles, theaters which are desperate need of new ones are Afghanistan and Vietnam for starters.

[Polak]

Great,
I have many questions and few comments but my general and perhaps most important questions at the moment are:
*F4 terrain tiles are just seamless 1 way, they are not rotational or flippable, right?
*can the number of generic tiles be increased in already made terrains? I have pretty good method and way to generate numerous variations of generic tiles
* is the number of tiles limited?
* how to edit palette of each group of tiles

thank you

[Snake Man]

*F4 terrain tiles are just seamless 1 way, they are not rotational or flippable, right?

Correct.

*can the number of generic tiles be increased in already made terrains?

Yes.

* is the number of tiles limited?

Well, yes, but no theater needs that amount of tiles which is technically possible. At least none of PMC theaters.

* how to edit palette of each group of tiles

Well dunno, I guess this question falls into the PaintShopPro or PhotoShop category.

Tile set has the same palette on all tiles (if that's what you mean).

[Sherlock]

....and a Tile Set consists of up to 16 tiles max.

[Polak]

Thank you for your replies.

The reason I am asking for increased number of generic tiles is because I would like to experiment and find how many various tiles (generic) terrain requires in order not to show repetition.

Here made sample mountain tile in the common frame . On the left 2 of 6 sample tiles and on the right 2x3 composition of those 6 tiles. Obviously the frame IS slightly visible, but that perhaps could be corrected. Most importantly perhaps you agree there is not much of monotoneous repetition. Somewhere I've heard that 20 generic tiles will not show repetition at the 1st glance. Well.. if 16 is the limit per set in this system, I'll have that then.

What do you think? Is it worth the effort, or this will show the repetition no matter what? Can someone help me (or instruct) how to increase number of generic tiles ?

http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo83 ... /mount.jpg[/img]

In the next post I just briefly mention about my way of making the transition tiles.

[ccc]

wow the tile pic looks cool.

* is the number of tiles limited?

IIRC, Fred said FF/RV can use 4096 tiles.

[toonces]

uh..ehem...Nevada....

Hey...who said that?

[Phoenix711]

16 tiles make a good 4km x 4km square. But, you still need to work on the four edges to create a seamless transition. Or, you will see a line when flying over the edges.

For falcon, another problem for that would be to lay roads / rivers on the terrain. Since you use 16 tiles like a single big generic tile, what about the roads? Lets say you have a road tile, then, you will have to work to make its edges seamles for every 4x4 "big tile", that creates a lot of road tiles.

Laying it down is another problem. Automatical programs we use, lay it down as single tiles.

And, where the rocky area ends, is another problem. For the 4x4 way, you may have to work for more transition tiles.

Of course, theres another way to tell the simulation, where are the roads. Then you must work for all of your 4x4 tile areas for those road, rivers and water areas. That, multiplies the number of 4x4 areas.

What one should understand here, is Falcon, reading its road network from the tiles itselfs. It is not just tiles layed down, and parameters / data for roads kept in a different place. Road / River information is kept into the tiles (texture.bin).

But your idea is great, and some theaters already used Google Earth imagery like the one you mentioned, but in a 1 single tile base way.

What would be great, was that we start to work together to create a tile package, which originates from the original Falcon texture zip file, creating all the 512 pixel tiles (Like hi-tiles), and let everyone use them as a package.

Cheers.

[Polak]

Thanks for interesting posts.

To avoid perhaps misunderstanding I would like to state that I do not intend to use those generic tiles in one spot (that is always in size of 4x4 tiles). My intention here was to show that I can create several generic tiles which (thanks to common border) will always seamlessly tie together whether it will be 2 tiles , 2x2, 4x4 or whatever.
Only the middle of the tile has some different content (in this case same mountain but from different spot).

Tiling it to different type of tiles will be made through transition tiles (which in fact will have also 1/2 of that common border). Roads and rivers must too have the same border. Each type of tile has different BUT always common border.


Let me quickly share with you something about transitions....
I too until now was making the transitions from generic tiles, cutting them and merging to fit and transition with smooth masking. Then I decided to reverse the process and 1st start finding transition between two types of the terrain and then from that create generic tiles.

The resulting effect was this:
http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo83 ... desert.jpg

[ccc]

woow.. your new tiles just make the rest part of terrain looks pale!

the trasnistion also looks good.

[Polak]

Nature is painter here. And you can't beat that. I just copy.

[Closter]

Those tiles are very good, man. And your point is great, too: natural transitions will always be better than hand-made ones.

[Sherlock]

@ Polak,
Sweet! That is one incredible looking tile. Yes, please do more!

[Polak]

Just to close this particular thread let me ask you to let me have a go at your main desert terrain only for a reason that I would like to have some sea and coast tiles included. Of which you can see small sample below. My experience teaches me that true lightening of the coastal shallow sea looks in terrains very good and convincing.

I also want to stress that I am NOT coming here with desire or goal to push all tilemakers aside, but just to involve all of us into the competition and common target to improve terrains of the BEST combat flight sim which is indisputable MPS's F4.

My only main concern is not my capacity to produce the tiles, but my lack of knowledge and experience in F4 terrain mechanics which can perhaps produce some unexpected traps down the road. In order to produce really appealing and variety terrain I very much count on introducing many generic tiles to the existing terrains. This as well as some larger swaths of photoreal pieces of land...perhaps.

So thanks.... and counting on cooperation and many interesting discussions.

http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo83 ... oast-1.jpg[/img]

[Sherlock]

Just to close this particular thread let me ask you to let me have a go at your main desert terrain only for a reason that I would like to have some sea and coast tiles included. Of which you can see small sample below. My experience teaches me that true lightening of the coastal shallow sea looks in terrains very good and convincing.

I also want to stress that I am NOT coming here with desire or goal to push all tilemakers aside, but just to involve all of us into the competition and common target to improve terrains of the BEST combat flight sim which is indisputable MPS's F4.

My only main concern is not my capacity to produce the tiles, but my lack of knowledge and experience in F4 terrain mechanics which can perhaps produce some unexpected traps down the road. In order to produce really appealing and variety terrain I very much count on introducing many generic tiles to the existing terrains. This as well as some larger swaths of photoreal pieces of land...perhaps.

So thanks.... and counting on cooperation and many interesting discussions.

Don't be shy.

You obviously have the graphic skill to do good tiles. I do not. However, Snake Man, myself and others have the terrain "mechanics" knowledge that you don't currently possess. Together we can work to improve the tiles appearance and learn from each other in the process. Welcome aboard!

[Snake Man]

PMC Editing Wiki: Falcon 4 Textures / Tiles gives you the basic info. If there is more you want to learn, just let me know and I'll do my best to help.

[Phoenix711]

Those tiles look great.

[derStef]

Wow, HOT STUFF, Polak!

keep on doing, you have a big talent on this as it seems!


cheers Man!

[trivella]

Great tiles
PM
cheers

[Snake Man]

Okay Polak, lets keep this topic as your generic tile making discussion topic... if you have specific ODS terrain / coast / ocean type questions or screenshots to show, post them into the proper ODS topics. But for this, its technical know-how only.