historical vietnam

[Guest]

Nice site. I would also like to help. I spent 8 years in the Army Reserve, and I've done alot of historical research on Nam and the tactics used. So if your interested a can prepare a list of targets the next time I visit.

[Guest]

Well thank you.

We definitely need some historical data to be able to create the theater "right". Anything you can provide as covering target locations, air bases etc.

I believe there was bridge or two that were bombed many times without totally putting them out of the action etc?

PMC TFW,
Snake Man.

[Guest]

Well, there were lots of bridges >50 and many required multiple passes before they were taken out. However, the two most important were the Dragon jaw(I'll try to get you the exact locations) which was near Thanh Hoa. This one spanned the Song Ma river. Then near Hanoi over the red river was the Doumer. I'll prepare a list of targets(POL,generators,railyards,harbors,ect..) later on this week. Lots and lots of targets heading north.

[Guest]

There seems to be quite lot of bridges indeed, I'm been tiling the Vietnam coast for past two nights now (its about 80% done).

In the historically important areas I can give you guys screenshot of the zoomed map so you can see if the dem data & roads/rivers data is correct.

PMC TFW,
Snake Man.

[Guest]

how's it going? Don't work yourself to death. I did some work on preparing the target list today. It's actually work and some fun,thanks for the opportunity to help out. I'm mainly working on strike packages from the DMZ all the way up to the 20th parallel.

[Guest]

Done tiling the coast all the way from Da Nang to China. Now continuing tiling from south of Da Nang.

After the whole coast is finished, I think its time to check the landmarks like road/river crossings and cities if they are correct. Adding the historical bridges etc.

PMC TFW,
Snake Man.

[Guest]

Snake
If you need help, post your progress on major f4 boards!
and upload files, download page is empty.
BTW, how about setting up a small Vietnam map somewhere, to show the progress of theater work? Fans would like to moniter it
And, how about turning off registration? this board needs more posts during early stage.

[Guest]

oops! sorry, not Snake, Snake_Man.
and i mean no Vietnam terrain files in download page, not tools.
BTW, since you r about to tile inland textures, i'd like to contribute few thoughts,
first, the inland terrain textures should include more rice paddles. JimG is quite familiar with that(in his old FA addon). Somebody note me there are rice farm tiles ready in Korea set, i checked, ya only few..and i m not sure if they look like rice paddles. As far as i learned, rice paddles locate in southmost Korea, whereas they are everywhere in Nam, interweaving with river, roads, villages.
If you are going to tile inland, you may use rice tiles more frequently, or use all tiles but modify them once tiling complete.
Second, I note many korea tiles are grass plain, no trees/bushes but grass. thats too clean. These open-space, "clean" tiles can be used in tiling, but suppose to be modified in late stage.

[Guest]

> If you need help, post your progress on > major f4 boards!

Nah, I'll keep the info about Vietnam & Operation Desert Storm here, so people dont have to browse the whole internet if they want to find out something

> BTW, how about setting up a small Vietnam > map somewhere, to show the progress of
> theater work? Fans would like to moniter > it

That kind of tiling progress map is coming soon, just need to make some good pic for it, the kind what accurately shows tiled segments.

About Rice paddles, I think those are the ones on light-yellow colored... maybe this too needs a screenshot example.

PMC TFW,
Snake Man.

[Guest]

Err..after checking some links:
http://grunt.space.swri.edu/visit.htm
http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/
http://grunt.space.swri.edu/atkhesan.htm
http://grunt.space.swri.edu/bunkphu.htm

I totally agree that we can use korea tiles, but emphasize on more paddy field tiles. Moutain tiles ok, paddy field need some modification. plus scattered villages.

[Guest]

The satellite views look really good. Well your impressing the hell out of me with the speed of progress your making. I'll give a short list on Wed. then more. I had the opportunity to talk with a Vietnam Veteran F-105 pilot yesterday, it was cool. He shot down a Mig 17 during this war. Talk to you manyana. Looks excellent.

[Guest]

Snakeman, don't worry, I didn't talk with the War Hero about your project. He just knows someone that I know.

[Guest]

Here's what we were up against at the end of 1966 in North Vietnam(NVN). There were 7000 AAA pieces which were responsible for shooting down 80% of US aircraft. Most of these were placed at strategic locations around airbases,ect.. Much like Korea.

Okay, now for locations starting at the DMZ and moving North.

1. Xom Bang was an ammo depot inland, location was 17 degrees 7'seconds latitude by 106deg. 45' longitude.

2. Dong Hoi was Coastal NVA staging area.
Loc: 17deg 28' lat by 106deg 38' longitude.

3. Airbase at Dong Hoi was used in the war.
Loc: 17deg 31' lat by 106deg 36' long.

4. Quang Khe naval base
Loc: 17deg 42' lat by 106deg 28' long.

5. Vinh city, railyard.
Loc: 18deg 40' lat by 105deg 40' long

6. Vinh airbase, i think just for emergency.
Loc; 18deg 44' lat by 105deg 40'

7. Vinh Son supply depot.
Loc: 18deg 54' lat by 105deg 19'

8. Thanh Hoa city was south of Song Ma river.
Loc: 19deg 48' lat by 105deg 47'

9. Dragon's jaw bridge north of city.
Loc: 19deg 50' lat by 105deg 48'

10. Two other bridges a few miles more north.
Loc: 19deg 59' lat by 105deg 51'
these are rail and highway bridges over the Song Len river.

Note: there were at least 30 small and medium size bridges taken out from the DMZ up to Thanh hoa(SA-2 and AAA sites). Plus 100's of railroad cars that sent supplies from Thanh Hoa to Vinh. Trucks convoy's were also targeted on highway 1A.

Here's what I got for you so far on the airbases in NVN.
1. Phuc Yen airbase, about 20 North of Hanoi.
2. Gia lam airbase, about 5 miles Northeast of Hanoi.
3. Cat Bi airbase NE of Hiaphong Harbor.
4. Kien An airbase at Hiaphong.
5. Kep about 50 miles NE Hanoi.
Phuc yen and Kep were the most important airbases in the war.

Hiaphong Harbor had major POL and industrial capacity. Storage tank farms ect... It got smoked.

Well I cant give you the exact location of the Doumer bridge yet, but I'll keep working on it.

[Guest]

In regards to Snake_man's and Brewski's thread - Snake_man!!! Don't lose this person!! We (being the flight sim enthtusiast community) need people like this gentleman!
Brew' - thank you from me, a 30-something (ex) Air Force LE for you dedication to helping out! I look forward to being able to telling my wingman to "Take Spread" when approaching a station over the `Nam!

-Wolf

[Guest]

Gentlemen, I just think that what you are venturing to accomplish is great. I am an avid Falcon4 pilot. I am also a ten year veteran of the US Air Force. I was stationed at Takhli AB, Thailand from 7/67 to 7/68.

Any Vietnam campaign has to include the Thailand bases from which the F-105 Thuds flew. The 355th TFW flew missions to NVM, Cambodia, etc. Thailand also had B-52 strikes out of Utapao, Thailand. If you are going to have a true representation of the Vietnam years, you cannot forget Thailand. It has to be included.

[Guest]

Hi guys and thanks for your nice comments.

Smasher, damn never though I got to speak with someone actually been there. You have my respect.

Did you look the screenshots picture Vietnam-map1.jpg ?
Are there enough Thailand to get those historic airbases which were used in the war?

PMC TFW,
Snake Man.

[Guest]

Snake Man, I looked at your Vietnam map and it doesn't even begin to include Thailand. Laos and Cambodia are buffers between Vietnam and Thailand. I searched the net and found a fundamental map of Thailand and Southeast Asia. I sent you a copy, but I think you didn't receive it. Here is a link to a site: http://www.thaifocus.com/maps.htm. Takhli is located in western Thailand. If you need any further help, don't hesitate to ask.

[Guest]

Wow. Now this is something I am really very interested in. It looks like you guys are trying to fine tune the location of the air bases and I have a little information regarding that:

Over 6,000 foot runway:
Kep: 212337N1061605E
Phuc Yen: 211315N1054832E
Hoa Lac: 210153N1053005E
Gia Lam: no coords, but NE of Hanoi city
Cat Bi: 204901N1064346E
Bai Thuong: 195404N1052822E
Vinh: 184402N1054032E
Under 6,000 foot runway:
Bach Mai:
Kien An: 204819N1063643E
Quang Ti:
Dan Loi:
Kep Ha: 212257N1063959E
Khe Phat:
Dong Hoi: 173035N1063550E
Dien Bien Phu: 212400N1030000E

I'm glad I found this site and will be very interested in following developments.

Where'd you get your terrain data? Is it really this simple to convert Falcon to Vietnam? Wow!

[Guest]

Smasher, thanks I received the image.

I've started placing objects in the Vietnam map now, basically all those objects that you Smasher posted with coordinates are there now. If you got more, please post them as its fairly easy for me to add them based on the long/lat coords.

The Hanoi area is now tiled, the whole coast and Da Nang area (had some problems there).

I have flown few SEAD missions against Hanoi airbase with F-4's from Da Nang. Looking good.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Guest]

Snake Man, how do you tile Nam theater soooo fast? mine is now 33% tiled, about 2-4 seg per day.
BTW, do you create new tiles for vietnam?

[Guest]

> Snake Man, how do you tile Nam theater
> soooo fast? mine is now 33% tiled, about
> 2-4 seg per day.

Lately I've selected a segment, and tiled the surrounding segments along with the selected one. so it comes to 9 segments. If I feel liker master tiler, I'll do maybe even two of these. But it really depends of how complex is the terrain. Sometimes I feel like cheater and tile much of those easy segments

> BTW, do you create new tiles for vietnam?

No. I think Korean does the job correctly and looking at installation / download perspective, we dont need to supply the Vietnam Release any textures (small size).

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Guest]

Hey CaseyJ

> It looks like you guys are trying to fine
> tune the location of the air bases and I > have a little information regarding that:

I've added all those bases of which long/lat you posted, if you have any more location details keep it coming and they will be added.

Also other kind of target information is highly appreciated.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Guest]

Snake, the Vietnam map has some problems...first of all, it looks like it is all mountains...is that what I am supposed to see? Also, about 5 miles out from my plane in all directions there is a moat of fog, that looks like it is about 1 mile across in the terrain.

[Guest]

Also, Gia Lam was an international airport and was never a target of attack. It is located ENE of Hanoi, just accross the Red River and a few miles from the Doumer Bridge. You can use this objective OCD# since it has crossing runways:980
The Doumer bridge was also ENE of Hanoi and was at ~80 deg. angle. One of those tactical pilotage charts would really be helpful.

[Guest]

Hi JimG

About the mountains and fog, can you please look to our screenshots page and compare what you are seeing to those shots, if they match then you have everyhing OK, if they dont... then you have something wrong with the terrain.

For example this shot covers nicely the terrain north from Hanoi city.
http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/screensho ... mshot3.jpg

The airbases I've created are coming from the data posted to this forum and from TerrainViews features (which I think is most up to date present day airfield datas). So keep on the historical data coming and I'll fix what needs fixing.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Guest]

Got it working....here is some notes:
Airfields/bases....got this out of a USAF book...is probably vintage 1972.
http://users.compuzone.net/jimg/NVAFields.html

1.Tried to use the TE and make a new one...CTD everytime...even tried to copy objectives to new te file..same thing...was only able to make new TE with my own created te_new file. Was able to use your already made TEs as well as fly the instant.
2. The area around Hanoi needs some work...the Red River (Song-Ma) is much wider and there are some tiles in Korea that you can work in. Can you flip/reverse the tiles or change the degrees of them? I have a gif of Hanoi...not the best, but at least you can get an idea of how big the river is and some of the lakes around Hanoi...the Paul Doumer Bridge hits in the middle on an island in the middle of the river. There is a site that has some of those tactical pilotage charts, which are very detailed...but he only has the southern half of Hanoi, no Haiphong, Thud Ridge, Thai Nguyen...others. Here is the link...be warned...slow loading:
http://www.nexus.net/~911gfx/NVNmap.html

3. All of the airfields in F4 have a specific terrain that matches them...placing an airfield in an open field doesn't look right...perhaps you can eventually work some of these into the terrain.
4. I can place a lot of the objectives for you, but there are limitations. There are no railyards or POL sites in F4....but we can improvise...there is plenty of other stuff that can be targets. The biggest problem, is placing all of the little cities and bridges like in F4...lots of work. I could, at least help with the tactical targets....I have some resources available.
5. As far as a campaign thing, this will be a toughie...don't know if F4 likes us messing with her campaign stuff...lots of CTDs. Perhaps an invasion of the north would be nice, but the game has to be able to recognize when one side is making progress, otherwise it might just go on forever and never end. Also, remember; F4 is set up so that China enters the war if you get the upper hand. But at least, you can copy all of your objectives into a cam file.
6. Did you ever think about stealing the Vietnam terrain from Janes USAF? I noticed it is going for $18...pretty cheap...guess it is a little late for that? They have satellite imagery terrain in there...some of it is interesting. Jim

[Guest]

Hey, Jim, JUSAF use sat photo for terrain texture. its great but, the whole texture was wrapped by that sat image co. cannt view by common graphic viewer.
i think its hard to extract it for making f4 tiles.

[Guest]

Jim i have not seen JUSAF but don't you think this terrain looks good? It looks perfect to me.

[Guest]

> 1.Tried to use the TE and make a new one...CTD everytime...

All right, now I feel like lame dork. Just looked the TE files of my VietnamTheaterBETA1.zip package and yes, somehow the te_new.tac file had "desertstorm" as in the Theater file. ARGH!

Fixed. You'll need the original Vietnam.thr file and just unzip this package (5kb) to your falcondir\campaign\Save directory.

http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/downloads ... .TE.07.zip

> Hanoi needs some work...the Red River (Song-Ma) is much wider

Yes there are only few wide rivers that are tiled correctly. I will fix these Hanoi area rivers soon.

> All of the airfields in F4 have a specific
> terrain that matches them...placing an
> airfield in an open field doesn't look
> right...

And the terrain on airbases/airstrips need to be flattened out so the "stairs" effect will be removed. I will fix these, but most important is to have all airbases placed first.

> I can place a lot of the objectives for you

Thats nice. Maybe you could email me so we could discuss more detailed about the ID numbers and such, so we dont do any overlapping work that goes to waste.

> The biggest problem, is placing all
> of the little cities and bridges like in

No problem, we already have perl script for village/city placement and I think there is Bridge placement script coming along soon.

> Did you ever think about stealing the Vietnam terrain from Janes USAF?

No. I think this DEM data is realistic and looks pretty good to me. I dont excatly remember how the terrain was in USAF (so long and I tried it like once. not a "sim" for me:)

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Blackbird]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Xuan_Loc
http://home.mweb.co.za/re/redcap/tet.htm
Aircraft used during VN war
http://www.farfromglory.com/aircraft.htm
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... rcraft.asp
http://www.marinecorpsmars.com/USAF_Hou ... ations.htm
You can fine some pictures of :AAA, T54, M113, Mig 21
http://henrybechtold.freewebspace.com/BienHoa.html
http://www.ausvets.com.au/vietnam/ops/ops1965.htm
http://8thattacksqdnassoc.tripod.com/Vietnama.html

[Snake Man]

Thanks for the links. And thanks for seven (7) year bump

[Blackbird]

Some VN war's video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTmgMYur ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2M5L3PS ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9frpGXe_ ... re=related

[Snake Man]

I just recently watched that in 720p, it was excellent overall show, there was lot of ground troops stuff and also some air action, so fits nicely to our forum (ArmA 2 VTE and Falcon 4 PMC Vietnam theater heh).

[Blackbird]

Yes, the blu ray "Vietnam in HD" was out last week. It is a good video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUI2cZgr ... re=related