Vietnam OOB

[Snake Man]

This is area for Order Of Battle for historical Vietnam War.

Two good links right here on our own forum

# missiles and bombs for vnam theater
http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/cgi-bin/u ... 2&t=000065
# marine units and locations
http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/cgi-bin/u ... 2&t=000021


Now couple of questions, I have these aircraft types on the squadron lists which I wanted to validate if we have them on the SP3 database, can we substitute them with something else etc. Here comes:
A-37B USAF
C-130E USAF
AC-130A USAF
AC-119G USAF
C-47 USAF
AC-47 USAF
C-47D, U-10B/D USAF
AC-119K USAF
A-26A USAF
B-26K USAF
T-28D, C-123K USAF
A-1E/G/H/J USAF
EB-66 USAF
RB-66 USAF
RF-4C USAF
EC-47 USAF
RF-101 USAF
EC-130E USAF
A-7D USAF

Then is the Yankee Station and Dixie Station carrier groups. We don't have those carriers in the datbase, do we? What about the aircrafts for those NAVY ships, what should I add there?

For North Vietnam AF I have added Mig-19PF, Mig-19PF and Mig-21MF/PFM. But I lack for the more accurate list of squadrons and which airbases to add them.

Ground units is whole other deal again, I got no idea how to operate them except just adding T-55's, AK-47's and M60's, M113's and M-16's for the area. Even those units contain some smaller technology that was not used in the war, for example M-16 infantry uses stingers I think (?).

Anyways OOB topic is open, post comments, information and corrections please

PMC TFW
Snake Man

--- edit
#
# nekromantix forum links for bombs and missiles
#
# missiles and bombs for vnam theater
#http://www.pmctactical.org/f4//cgi-bin/ ... 2&t=000065
# marine units and locations
#http://www.pmctactical.org/f4//cgi-bin/ ... 2&t=000021

#Heres a link to check out. I believe Joe Baugher is quintisential authority on
#US military aircraft. Listing such as this listing about F105D's
#355th Tactical Fighter Wing, Tahkli RTAFB, Thailand
#333rd Tactical Fighter Squadron (Dec 1965-Dec 1970)
#357th Tactical Fighter Squadron (Jan 1966-Dec 1970
#354th Tactical Fighter Squadron (Dec 1965-Dec 1970)
#44th Tactical Fighter Squadron (Oct 1969-Dec 1970)
#This guy list everything from soup to nuts.
#ya might want to check it out
#http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/

#After the May buildup to linebacker,
#DaNang had three USAF F-4 Squadrons totalling 59 phantoms; two VMFA squadrons
# totalling 27 phantoms; and one VMA squadron with 12 A-6's. Korat had two USAF
# squadrons with 34 phantoms total; one F-105f/g squadron with 31 thuds; and
# a EB-66 electronic countermeasures squadron with 20 whales. Ubon had 5 USAF
# squadrons with 92 phantoms; Udorn had 5 USAF squadrons with 94 phantoms; and
# one RF-4 squadron with 19 phantoms. and finally, Takhli had 4 USAF squadrons
# with 72 phantoms. Thats a total of 456 aircraft, up from 235 just two months
# previously. By December they had another 48 F-111's flying out of Takhli
# (doing mostly airfield and runway strikes) and 72 USAF A-7s at Korat.

#Phantoms from the 469th TFS and the 34th TFS flew out of Korat, Thailand. Tailcode JJ
#35th TFS also out of korat and Da Nang.
#433rd TFS was out of Ubon.
#Tailcode FG AF 66 815
#25th TFS, Ubon, tailcode FA AF 66 745
#497th TFS,Ubon, tailcode FP AF 66 802
#435th TFS,Ubon, tailcode FO

#555 TFS triple nickle out of Udorn Royal Thai Airforce base. Tailcode was
#OY AF 67 463 for Ritchie and Debellevue.
#4th TFS, Udorn
#13th TFS, Udorn, tailcode OC

#F-105's were out of Korat and Takhli. Although mainly mud movers they got some Mig kills too.
#354th TFS, Takhli, tailcode RM
#357th TFS, Takhli, tailcode RU
#333rd TFS, Takhli, tailcode RK
#44th TFS, F-105G wild weasels,Takhli, tailcode RE

#561st TFS, F-105G’s wild weasels, Korat, tailcode WW 63-320
#469th TFS, Korat, tailcode JV

#---
# A-37B USAF 90 AS, Bien Hoa
# A-37A/B USAF 604 SOS, Bien Hoa
# A-37B USAF 8 AS, Bien Hoa
# F-100D/F USAF 90 TFSq, Bien Hoa
# A-37B USAF 8 SOS, Bien Hoa
# F-100D/F USAF 510 TFSq, Bien Hoa

# C-130E USAF 346 TASq, 314 TAWg CCK
# C-130E USAF 345 TASq, 314 TAWg CCK

# AC-130A USAF 16 SOS, Nha Trang
# AC-119G USAF 17 SOS, Nha Trang
# C-47, 0-2 USAF 9 SOS, Nha Trang
# AC-47 USAF 4 SOS, Nha Trang
# AC-47 USAF 3 SOS, Nha Trang
# A-1E/G USAF 1 SOS, Nha Trang
# C-47D, U-10B/D USAF 5 SOS, Nha Trang

# AC-119K USAF 18 SOS, 14 SOWg NKP Stinger
# A-26A USAF 609 ACS, 56 Acwg NKP Nimrod
# B-26K USAF 603 SOS, 56 SOW NKP
# T-28D, C-123K USAF 606 SOS, 56 SOWg NKP Zorro
# A1-E/G.H/J USAF 22 SOS, 56 SOWg NKP Zorro
# A-1E/G/H/J USAF 602 SOS, 56 SOWg NKP
# A-1E/G/H/J USAF 1 SOS, 56 SOWg NKP Hobo

# F-4C/D USAF 390 TFSq, Da Nang
# C-123K, U-10A/B USAF Det 1, 1 SOW Da Nang
# F-4E USAF 414 FWSq, Da Nang
# F-4C/D USAF 389 TFSq. Da Nang
# F-4C/D USAF 480 TFSq, Da Nang
# F-4E USAF 4 TFSq, Da Nang
# F-4E USAF 421 TFSq, Da Nang
# C-123B/K USAF 311 ACS, Da Nang
# F-4D USAF 390 TFSq, Da Nang


# EB-66 USAF 41 TEWS, 355 TFWg Takhli
# F-105D USAF 357 TFSq, 355 TFWg Takhli
# RB-66 USAF 42 TEWSq, 355 TFWg Takhli
# F-4D USAF 8 TFSq, 49 TFWg Takhli
# F-105D USAF 354 TFSq, 355 TFWg Takhli
# F-105D USAF 333 TFSq, 355 TFWg Takhli
# F-4D USAF 9 TFSq, 49 TFWg Takhli
# F-4D USAF 7 TFSq, 49 TFWg Takhli
# F-105D USAF 44 TFSq, 355 TFWg Takhli


# AC-47D USAF 4 SOS, 432 TRW Udorn
# RF-4C USAF 11 TRSq, 432 TRWg Udorn
# F-4D USAF 13 TFSq, 432 TRWg Udorn
# RF-4C USAF 14 TRSq, 432 TRWg Udorn
# F-4D USAF 555 TFSq, 432 TRWg Udorn
# F-4E USAF 4 TFSq, 432 TRWg Udorn
# F-4E USAF 25 TFSq, 432 TRWg Udorn
# F-4E USAF 58 TFSq, 33 TFWg Udorn
# F-4E USAF 308 TFSq, 31 TFWg Udorn
# F-4E USAF 307 TFSq, 31 TFWg Udorn
# F-4D USAF 523 TFSq, 405 TFWg Udorn
# F-4E USAF 421 TFSq, 432 TRWg Udorn


# AC-130A/E USAF 16 SOS, 8 TFWg Ubon
# AC-130H USAF 16 SOS, 8 TFWg Ubon
# F-4D USAF 25TFSq, 8 TFWg Ubon
# F-4C/D USAF 433 TFSq, 8 TFWg Ubon
# F-4C/D USAF 435 TFSq, 8 TFWg Ubon
# F-4C/D USAF 497 TFSq, 8 TFWg Ubon
# F-4C/D USAF 555 TFSq, 8 TFWg Ubon
# F-4E USAF 334 TFSq, 4 TFWg Ubon
# F-4E USAF 335 TFSq, 4 TFWg Ubon
# AC-130A USAF 16 SOS, 8 TFW Ubon
# EC-47 USAF 360 TEWSq, 8TFWg Ubon
# F-4E USAF 336 TFSq, 4 TFWg Ubon


# there should be no KC-10's, please check!
# C-123B/K USAF 310 ACS, 315 ACWg Tan Son Nhut
# RF-4C USAF 16 TRSq, 460 TRWg Tan Son Nhut
# RF-4C USAF 12 TRSq, 460 TRWg Tan Son Nhut
# RF-101 USAF 45 TRSq, 460 TRWg Tan Son Nhut
# C-123B/K USAF 19 ACS, 315 ACWg Tan Son Nhut
# C-47, 0-2B USAF 9 SOS. 14 SOW Tan Son Nhut
# C-123B/K USAF 309 ACS, 315 ACWg Tan Son Nhut


# AC-47D USAF 4 SOS, 14 SOWg Pleiku
# A-1E/H USAF 6 SOS, 633 SOWg Pleiku
# A1-E/G USAF 1 ACS, 14 ACWg Pleiku
# AC-47D USAF 3 SOS, 14 SOWg Pleiku


# F-4E USAF 34 TFSq, Korat
# EC-130E USAF 7 ACCS, Korat
# F-4D USAF 417 TFS, Korat
# F-4D USAF 35 TFSq, Korat
# F-4C USAF 67 TFSq, Korat
# F-4E USAF 469 TFSq, Korat
# F-111A USAF 429 TFS, Korat
# F-111A USAF 428 TFS, Korat
# F-105D USAF 34 TFSq, Korat
# F-105D USAF 469 TFSq, Korat
# F-105D USAF 44 TFSq, Korat
# F-105G USAF 561 WWSq, Korat
# F-105G USAF 17 WWS, Korat
# A-7D USAF 3 TFS, Korat

# F-4C USAF 391 TFSq, Cam Ranh Bay
# F-4C USAF 559 TFSq, Cam Ranh Bay
# F-4C USAF 558 TFSq, Cam Ranh Bay
# F-4C USAF 558 TFSq, Cam Ranh Bay
# F-4C USAF 557 TFSq, Cam Ranh Bay

# A-37B USAF 8 SOS, 14 SOW Chu Lai

# C-47 USAF 5 SOS, 14 SOW Phu Cat
# F-100D/F USAF 612 TFS, 37 TFW Phu Cat
# F-100D/F USAF 355 TFS, 37 TFW Phu Cat
# F-4D USAF 480 TFS, 37 TFW Phu Cat
# F-4D USAF 389 TFS, 37 TFW Phu Cat
# F-100D/F USAF 416 TFS, 37 TFW Phu Cat
# F-100D/F USAF 174 TFS, 37 TFW Phu Cat
# F-4D USAF 480 TFSq, 12 TFWg Phu Cat
# EC-47 USAF 361 TEWSq, 14 SOWg Phu Cat
# F-4D USAF 389 TFSq, 12 TFWg Phu Cat


# fictional nakhon squadrons
# no f4's in naked fanny
# 4 FIGHTER_F4ESK

#
# these should be D models and lateron G models.
# we should use the 4133rd Provisional BW and the 364th & 365th Provisional BS's.

# 4 ATTACK_A37B
# A-37B USAF 90 AS, Bien Hoa
# A-37A/B USAF 604 SOS, Bien Hoa
# A-37B USAF 8 AS, Bien Hoa
# F-100D/F USAF 90 TFSq, Bien Hoa
# A-37B USAF 8 SOS, Bien Hoa
# F-100D/F USAF 510 TFSq, Bien Hoa

[ccc]

Can't resist join OOB talk

first,
=====================================
Now couple of questions, I have these aircraft types on the squadron lists which I wanted to validate if we have them on the SP3 database, can we substitute them with something else etc. Here comes:

A-37B USAF ------Rick said he'll back on this, not sure next SP can have it, use F5A or F5E instead.
C-130E USAF--------use default C130
AC-130A USAF
AC-119G USAF ------default in DB
C-47 USAF -------- use an-24/ two engine.
AC-47 USAF -------- use ac130
C-47D, U-10B/D USAF ---use an24
AC-119K USAF ----use an24
A-26A USAF ----use OV10A
B-26K USAF ---use OV10A
T-28D, C-123K USAF ----use c130 or an24
A-1E/G/H/J USAF ----use an2, or ov10A
EB-66 USAF ----if Rick lend us S-3, we can use it.
RB-66 USAF ---S3
RF-4C USAF ---Quake's rushing on it.
EC-47 USAF--c130
RF-101 USAF ----if rf4c available.
EC-130E USAF ---use c130
A-7D USAF ----Fred had done this one, definitely available!

** comment: most can be done quickly, i mean in 3ds. but conversion takes long.

[ccc]

quote:Then is the Yankee Station and Dixie Station carrier groups. We don't have those carriers in the datbase, do we? What about the aircrafts for those NAVY ships, what should I add there?

Basically F-4B/J, A6, A7, or A4?, RA5C, S2, SH3..

quote:For North Vietnam AF I have added Mig-19PF, Mig-19PF and Mig-21MF/PFM.

dont forget they got mig17. some il28. some an2. and heard very limited mig23 at the end of war. they should have mig21f/f13 too.

quote:Ground units is whole other deal again, I got no idea how to operate them except just adding T-55's, AK-47's and M60's, M113's and M-16's for the area. Even those units contain some smaller technology that was not used in the war, for example M-16 infantry uses stingers I think (?).

US army and USMC use some tanks like M41 and M48, and some odd bazooka tank, LTV-5, etc. NVA got T34 (in sp3!) and PT76. M16 infantry need new unit, using redeye instead.

[ccc]

i'd better post again here:
http://www.soft.net.uk/entrinet/forces.htm http://www.soft.net.uk/entrinet/Order%2 ... rmour1.htm

[ccc]

better links, detailed.
http://www.soft.net.uk/entrinet/vc_nva_oob.htm
http://www.soft.net.uk/entrinet/Order%2 ... s/rvn1.htm
http://www.soft.net.uk/entrinet/Order%2 ... s/army.htm

[therock]

Hmm... I think, I should check them out too.

[easykill]

Hi, first time on this forum!!!

Something about OOB in Vietnam campaign:

One of the best "Mig Killers" during the Rolling Thunder campaigns ('65-'68) was the F-8E Crusader, used by the US Navy (Carrier based) and the Marines (land based, in Da Nang ad Chu Lai).
Used like interceptor the F-8 gained air superiority over Mig 17 and 21 with at least 18 kills.

Any way to see these planes in the upcoming Vietnam Campaign? It should be a must from the Tonkin Gulf Crisis to 1970 time period.

Uh....and don't forget the RF-8....

ciao, Easy

[brewskie]

They used a self-propelled light tank equiped with several recoiless rifles attached, i believe it was called a "duster." I will see if i can find a pic of it. Too bad most of the Veterans have retired from the service. Back in the late 80's some were still serving and would tell you about the NVA spider hole ambushes and what not. They would only talk to you about it if you wore the Uniform and were in Combat arms.

[Golf33]

I've seen the thing with the 6 106mm RCLs called an "ONTOS" but I don't know what it stands for. Truly bizarre.

For OOB, for quite a bit of the war there was an understrength Australian Brigade based at Nui Dat in the south. At peak I think their strength was 2 x infantry battalions, 2 x artillery (105mm) batteries, a company (squadron to Australians) of tanks, and a company (squadron to Australians) of SASR soldiers. There were also some RAAF squadrons in the theatre, flying the UH-1 (not sure which version). If this stuff is worth including, let me know, & I'll track down unit numbers, equipment, and dates for you.

Regards
33

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by Golf33:
let me know, & I'll track down unit numbers, equipment, and dates for you.

Yeah it would be good idea to get those numbers so we can add them. So far I have not made edits to the database in this magnitude, but should be completely doable.

Thanks mate!

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[chance]

Golf 33 sends

quote: There were also some RAAF squadrons in the theatre, flying the UH-1 (not sure which version).

RAAF flew C-7s, Porters, B-57's and other misc a/c. There were also RAAF FACs attached to the 19th TASS operating out of Vung Tau, DiAn, Xuan Loc, Quan Loi and other places besides Nui Dot. B-57s operated from Bien Hoa and Phan Rhang depending on the time frame.

[Golf33]

1966
1st Australian Task Force (OPCON to 11 Field Force and based at
5th and 6th Bns, the Royal Australian Regiment (infantry)
APC coy (M113)
SASR coy (special forces)
Artillery Regt (think 12 Fd Regt but still checking, equipped with 105mm towed M2A2 and including one NZ bty)
9 Sqn RAAF (8 x UH1B, later 16 x UH1H)
161 Independent Recce Flight (Sioux helo, still checking numbers)

1967
5 & 6 RAR replaced by 2 RAR (including 1 coy of NZ infantry) and 7 RAR
December, 3 RAR also added to Nui Dat
Tank Coy (Centurion tanks)
RAAF sqn (Canberra bombers, checking unit and acft model)
HMAS Hobart (destroyer)

from then on strength remained at 3 inf bns, rotated every 12 months, until 1970 when it went back to 2 bns, then 1971 the ATF was withdrawn altogether.

I don't think the units below Bn strength can be modelled, so it will be best if you can get the tanks & APCs included in the inf bn orbat instead.

I'll get more info to you as soon as I can.

Feel free to email me the tiles any time. My wife is about to have our first child (october), so if I'm going to be any use it'll probably have to be in the next month or two.

Regards
33

[172ndhamm]

Brewskie, regarding the ONTOS,
ONTOS was the Marine corps M-50A1 anti-tank vehicle. See pic below. Designed in the 1950's, it served with the corps until just before the end of the Vietnam war.
Ontos is Greek for "the Thing," which is what is was called, apparently. Lightly armoured, fully tracked, it mounted six 106mm recoiless rifles, four .50 cal spotting rifles and one .30 cal mg. The recoiless were mounted on a manually operated turret with an 80 deg horizontal arc, and about 20 degree elevation. The spotting rifles were bolted to the recoiless, and had the same balistics and the recoiless, firing willy pete tracer rounds.
It's low ground pressure meant it was manuverable and usefull even on jungle paths, and it nearly impossible to get stuck in the mud. Often used for convoy escort, they were usually found at the tail end of the convoy for two reason: 1st, it's light armour made it more vulnerable to mines than, say, an M-60, and 2nd, because you don't want to be behind a recoiless rifle when it's fired...


Historical Hamm.

[Red Dog]

I have the Vietnam Air War Debrief book (Aerospace publishing) with the complete OOB.
I'll scan it in the coming week.

Cheers
RD

[Snake Man]

Anyone know squadron sizes for the F-100, F-105, A-1, A-4 etc aircrafts?

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[172ndhamm]

Col Jack Broughton, USAF (Ret) in his book "Thud Ridge" describes his wing as being made up of about 5000 personel, supporting 3 semi-independant squadrons of about 20 aircraft each. He flew F-105's from Takhli in 1966-67.

I've also read that most of the Carriers attack and fighter squadrons included 12-15 aircraft each.

[172ndhamm]

quote:Snake Man
Anyone know squadron sizes for the F-100, F-105, A-1, A-4 etc aircrafts?

I've posted this on my website too, It might be easier to read in Table form. http://www.icrossroads.com/~kcins/utility.html

Carrier Air Wing Composition

Regardless of whether it was one of the Big Deck or one of the smaller 27 Charlie Carriers, the Carrier Air Wing was pretty well the same: Two Fighter Squadrons, two or three Attack Squadrons, and early-warning, photorecon, and helo detachments. A full Squadron was usually around 12 aircraft, varying, of course, with battle losses.
The Bigger aircraft, Like the Phantoms and Intruders & Vigilantes, flew only off the Bigger boats. The 27 Charlie boats- the Essex and Midway class carriers would typically carry two F-8 Squadrons, an A-1 Squadron, two A-4 Squadrons, RF-8s, E-1's, and KA-3 tankers. The Big Deck carriers would use F-4s for the Fighter Squadrons, and A-5s Vigilantes for the Recon and Heavy Attack roles.
A-7's were introduced in 1967, with the VA-147 Argonauts, on the Big Deck USS Ranger. That Cruise the Ranger carried F-4Bs, A-4s, A-6s, and the new A-7s all sharing in the attack role on that cruise.
Carriers carrying A-6's (post '66?) usually flew with both A-4 Squadrons and A-6 Squadrons.

Numbers of U.S. Carrier Deployments to Yankee and Dixie Stations during the Vietnam War

CVA 19 HANCOCK, PAC fleet. 7 Cruises 1964-1972, Air Wings 5, AND 21
CVA 34 ORISKANY PAC, 7 1965-73 16, 19
CVA 61 RANGER PAC 7 1964-73 2,9, 14
CVA 64 CONSTELLATION PAC, 6 1964-73 9,14, 15
CVA 43 CORAL SEA PAC 6 1964-73 2, 15
CVA 31 BON HOMME RICHARD PAC, 6 Cruises 1964-70 5,19, 21
CVAN 65 ENTERPRISE LANT 6 1965-73 9, 14
CVA 63 KITTYHAWK PAC 6 1965-72 11
CVA 14 TICONDEROGA PAC 5 1964-69 5,16, 19
CVA 66 AMERICA LANT 4 1968-73 6, 8, 9
CVA 41 MIDWAY PAC 3 1965-73 2, 5
CVS 11 INTREPID LANT 3 1966-69 10
CVA 59 FORRESTAL LANT 1 1967 17
CVA 62 INDEPENDANCE LANT 1 1969 7
CVA 42 F.D. ROOSEVELT, LANT 1 1966-67 1
CVA 60 SARATOGA LANT 1 1972-73 3
CVA 38 SHANGRI LA PAC 1 1970 8

The following five carriers each made one further deployment to Vietnam during 1973:
ORISKANY, HANCOCK, CONSTELLATION, CORAL SEA & MIDWAY.

[ccc]

Vnam OOB, the ammo/airborne stores is pretty complete now. most AA/AG weapons are modeled...let me know if we need more.

the a/c and other vehicles are another story.

[Snake Man]

First post updated. The messy # data on my historical campaign TCL scripts.

[Blackbird]

Now, I understand I didn't see those list before. I think SVNAF still has F-5, A-37, UH-1 in every airbase. I don't know about the rest but I can ask. I know few VN pilots. They may provide the good infor.

[Blackbird]

I didn't know F-102 had squaron in Da Nang VN

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Ai ... 785&size=L

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.s ... ersion=6.0

[Blackbird]

F-100, F-105 are at Danang air base
http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Ai ... 23024cea0d

[derStef]

btw the new FF5.3 DB will have several goodies for this theater.

A-37/T-37
T-38
OV-1
C-123
3 new A-7s
B-57
UH-1D Huey gunship
RA-3B Skywarrior
C-7 Caribuo
KA-6D

regards

Stef