Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

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Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-19 08:46:15

Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

I'm total newbie for hardcore multiplayer, I mean when I look those pro MP community people, I'm like guy who just tested ArmA the first time (of course MP gaming dates back to OFP too, but this is ArmA area now).

I mean don't get me wrong, it was 2001 summer when me and my brother were playing insane LAN games with just released OFP, hours and hours... lot of pizza and coca cola used trust me, so I'm not "new" to MP as a player, but I have no clue about the pro level stuff like the PvP, AD, CH etc, I don't even mostly know what those terms mean.

I would need to get a crash course on MP stuff so I could create some proper missions for upcoming VTE MP evening.

My problem right now is that for example Player Versus Player (PvP right?) missions, I understand what it means, that its mostly if not completely humans against humans, or perhaps human squad leaders leading AI's against same setup on the enemy side. But beyond that, what really IS a PvP mission, what are the objectives and design for it.

I was talking with friend of mine who's pro MP guy with a lot of experience and I feel like such a fucking newbie when I don't get like anything he's saying, perhaps its mis-communication or something but I just have no clue how to design a PvP mission properly that it would satisfy these pro MP guys, I mean I feel like there is specific design for "real" PvP mission instead of putting lot of guys with playable status in mission editor.

Could anyone help me by providing as detailed and practical examples for many of the MP gaming modes and how to design missions for them, even list of tips "what not to do" would be great start.

Thanks, again I'm not asking much :)

Edit: following is summary of this whole topic. These are my own thoughts after talking with people and reading forums, I make NO claims that these are somehow "facts" or anything more than simple thoughts from me. If you find something to correct in this list, please feel free to let me know.

Attack & Defend - A&D. The basic preset is that one side has some objective. I.e the US AirCav has to land and search a Village for a weapons cache with the OPFOR defending or trying to stop Force A (the US) from achieving that goal. That would be the VC lying around in bushes with the pretext of ambushing the US guys. Usually those A&D are more conventional with a clear frontline and two regular army units facing off each other. A&D is like COOP but with humans on both sides. Score by kill everyone at an objective or hold some sector or destroy some Object/Unit on the Map, etc... well, A&Ds are really free for all winning conditions.

Capture & Hold - C&H. Its actually some place to capture and hold as long as possible, be it empty place or defended by opponent player team or AI or third fraction etc. Score by hold area and get points for it, timeLimit + sometimes killing too.

Capture The Flag - CTF. Capture enemys flag and bring it to your base while guarding your own flag. Score by flags (obviously) and timeLimit + sometimes killing too.

Capture The Island - CTI. Warfare is CTI.

Cooperative - COOP. Is always humans against AI. This is propably the most common gamemode today.

Death Match - DM. Everybody against everybody. Score by killing everyone, highest score wins after timelimit.

Flag Fight - FF. 2 or more teams fighting for 1 flag, hidden or place somewhere central.

Player versus Player - PvP. Humans on BLUFOR and OPFOR side fighting each other in organized way with objectives and similar tasks.

Sector Control - SC. Capture and control sectors. Score by hold area and get points for it, timeLimit + sometimes killing too.

Sniper Death Match - SDM. ???. Two sectors spaced quite far apart, with some enterable no-mans-land inbetween. The sides are restricted only frontal approach possible... and a large tower (castle tower) was there ... so you mainly snipe at the others... if you got bored or crazy, you tried to charge through no-mans-land with an assaultrifle, hopping from nicely, but sparingly, placed trash/cover to the next... zigzagging to avoid being shot right away.

Team Death Match - TDM. Score by Killing enemy guys, but not your side.

Team versus Team - TvT.
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Vigilante » 2009-05-19 09:10:33

Oh, i REALLY need to convert my old OFP sebnam missions to ArmA.. if i still can find them.

I dont know where your real problem is now? Knowing the abbrevations? Differences in the gamemodes? I mean, hey you do that VTE almost barehandedly ;) you already know a lot...

I really dont get where your problem is but i can post some of my thoughts about nice missions...
I made quite alot of 1vs1 PvP missions for OFP, since my friend and i just had those two PC running it, they where mainly some form of SectorControl and Deathmatch and maybe the odd somme CoOp ...

For SectorControl we liked to place us as Squadleader with some 4-8 AI bots to use them, as annoyance to the other player just like mines/boobytraps ... or as driver/pilot.

Deathmatch is nice with pistols only (or random small-arms with some heavy or 'uber'weapon hidden at some hard to reach place), or celerys minideathmatches are so cool.

Attack&Defend is also nice ...

actually i remember quite alot nice PvP missions for OFP in sebnammod.. i played many of them online, before switching to Arma...

Personally i really dont like Capture the Flag, since i somehow feel like a boyscout ... but anyway ... SectorControl is about the same, just without need to bring back the flag (urgh... how i hate this :P )
The nice thing with sector control is its up to you to guard it, boobytrap it, or just leave it conquered but empty... with our 1vs1 PvP SectorControl missions i always made 5 Sectors, 2 close to starting points each and one more central one. So each side could capture the first two quite easily/quickly so that the heavy fighting was mostly concentrated in teh middle sector and if one side was annihilated the other took even the other two sectors, so the defeated side had to hurry up to get those sectors back or their score would lag behind too much before game end.

My SectorControl Missions where actually just some converted&adapted/enhanced SectorControls from BIS, those that where included... we just added the nicest addons and the ECP for nice effects, some timer scripts showing time left and some scoring scripts to show points once in a while ...

Also adding some unexpected things, like randomly placed boobytraps will do nice ranomization on the gameflow.
I also always added some non-respawning or long-time respawning assets, like small choppers or some uparmored car
And quite far from the actual sectors there where always some 'gems' hidden .. like big tanks or big choppers with bigger guns, their respawn time was even longer and since they where quite off-route you had to decide if you take sectors or get these assets ...

nah, i think you are already allright... i played some missions today online with your server, just few refinements necessary ... also if its not to be a big coop-night special missions, then keep the walking to a minimum! Online gaming for fun isnt fun anymore when half of the time you just run back to where the action is!

the closer everything is the more action will ensue... thats i think the most important in PvP ... ACTION!
We are guys, mostly, afterall.. we dont need foreplay ;)
... at least not in gameing!
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-19 10:18:26

Vigilante wrote:Oh, i REALLY need to convert my old OFP sebnam missions to ArmA.. if i still can find them.
Please let me know if you do as I'd like to get them (even as originals).
I dont know where your real problem is now? Knowing the abbrevations? Differences in the gamemodes? I mean, hey you do that VTE almost barehandedly ;) you already know a lot...
I know a lot on ArmA modding, yes, I know little if none a professional daily/weekly played multiplayer missions :)

Okay so for example I was talking with my friend and I recall really scratching my head when he mentioned something that PvP can easily turn into TDM (team death match, right?) which again set me off way back in the learning process... now what is the difference of PvP and TDM... death match I would believe is just random mindless shooting while PvP would be organized, team work based objective oriented gameplay.

Another issue is that AD (Attack & Defend, right?) is completely unknown to me. Is it that both sides have objective to attack and defend another one, or to attack objective and defend it after... no idea at all.

In a nutshell I feel like if I make a mission, I cannot call it PvP or AD or whatever because the pro MP guys would laugh that hey dumbass, that is CTI and not XYZ. Okay I'm not here to please some pro MP guys, that's not the point... but naturally I would like to learn how things work, instead of just blindly doing my own thing and naming it incorrectly. And yes if I would have real PvP or AD missions, then people joining would see that ah-ha this is nicely setup mission and I'm enjoying it (and hopefully coming back another night). That sort of thing.
For SectorControl we liked to place us as Squadleader with some 4-8 AI bots to use them
Deathmatch is nice with pistols only (or random small-arms
I actually remember the Resistance time deathmatches with pistols on some desert ruins, that was fun change from normal mission routines.

I believe I know the basic layout of sector control and deathmatch (heh is that ANY layout in deathmatch hehe). My interest now is on the more complex or perhaps team oriented game modes.
Attack&Defend is also nice ...
Please tell me what ever you can about this game mode? :)
actually i remember quite alot nice PvP missions for OFP in sebnammod..
Again if you can find them, or even links for their downloads, please send them to me I would appreciate.
Personally i really dont like Capture the Flag,
Capture The Flag (CTF) is capturing enemy flag and bringing it to your base while defending your own flag at the same time?
i always made 5 Sectors, 2 close to starting points each and one more central one. So each side could capture the first two quite easily/quickly so that the heavy fighting was mostly concentrated in teh middle sector
Thanks I'll keep that tip in mind.
My SectorControl Missions where actually just some converted&adapted/enhanced SectorControls from BIS
I think I have some old OFP VTE sector control for Marines and VC, will have to see how it ports for ArmA, or just take brand new ArmA mission to port from scratch.
if its not to be a big coop-night special missions, then keep the walking to a minimum! Online gaming for fun isnt fun anymore when half of the time you just run back to where the action is!
This is also part of my question as for design of PvP etc missions, how much idle time there would be like how far would your base/FARP/etc be from the objective and so on.
the closer everything is the more action will ensue... thats i think the most important in PvP ... ACTION!
Oh, well that was new info to me (as I have pretty much no info). I had some idea that PvP might be bit more long winded.

Thanks for the info, I'm one step closer to understanding stuff again :)
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Vigilante » 2009-05-19 10:46:08

Ah, ok i see ... same i had too ...

PvP is just the opposite to Coop ... ie player versus player (duh) ... coop is ALWAYS players against AI .. (yeah, i know some exceptions apply)

TDM is a PvP, but not Coop ... well maybe a mix of both... Its a variant of DM (DeathMatch) where its everybody against everybody. in TDM (TeamDeathMatch) its like a group of players against another group of players... there is even some three teams deathmatch (i even saw than on your server if i remember correctly)

CTF (CaptureTheFlag) yep you are right... but online its mostly kinda silly camper DM with some flagscoring .. thats why i dont like it ...

AD (Attack&Defend) would be one player group is sitting on a hill, lets say Hill970, while the other group needs to take it, be it by occupying (ie at least x% of attackers inside base with 0% of defenders inside base) or by total annihilation of any side. It could be till some time runs out, like reinforcements arrive, or airsupport from the defenders, or till sunrise... make it a real hamburger hill, like withdrawal without need and such ... spray some Agent Orange inbetween ;) ...
This gamemode could also be Coop! On any side, thats nice too!
Or its a US Airbase/Forward Fire Base, FARP or whatnot... its like 0300h and the NVA, supported by some VC Sappers need to get into base before daylight/fog clears up. (Fog is actually a VERY nice 'timer' method... it adds atmosphere AND is a credible reason for the defenders not being able to call in arty or Airsupport/Evac)
Do a limited respawn for more fun, so even with just 10vs10 guys it will feel like some humanwave attack.. and/or add a bunch of AI in the first wave as cannon fodder ... also to man the spotlights or M2 of the perimeter defence.
I love to play these in the dawn or dusk or middle of the night ... i always used some flare script to dip the whole scenery into eery lighting, which will fade to pitchblack till the next flare pops...

ahh... so much fun that is...

For SC (SectorControl) you could also use flagpoles to 'capture' the sector, that someone needs to remove the flag, especially nice if this flagpole is very much in the open, so you need teamwork to get safely to it.. and back! Its not like FF (Flagfight) or CTF, you just need to pull down the flag to 'capture' the sector in question, no need to carry that stupid thing..

FF (FlagFight) now is a variant.. its 2 (or more ;) ) teams fighting for 1 Flag, hidden or place somewhere central. I played that at some paintball field too, actually some gamestyles are straight from paintball .. or the other way around ;) ... i think there are some sites explaining gamemodi for paintball/airsoft ... back to FF .. each time someone brings back the fag to their own starting point, or even another point than the respawn place, they get points and the fag jumps back to the central position ... i liked to place the flag on one of these watch-towers ;) ... so its even harder to get it without being popped!

Actually i like FF much more then CTF ...

Ah, then there is SDM (SniperDeathmatch) or something... that was quite nice too.. its for the camper friends out there... two sectors spaced quite far apart, with some enterable no-mans-land inbetween. The sides are restricted only frontal approach possible... and a large tower (castle tower) was there ... so you mainly snipe at the others... if you got bored or crazy, you tried to charge through no-mans-land with an assaultrifle, hopping from nicely, but sparingly, placed trash/cover to the next... zigzagging to avoid being shot right away ;)

Of course the pistol deathmatch.. it was one of our 'end-of-the-night' games ... just to get rid of the last steam we might have and its easy on the brains, no much thinking..
Tank Deathmatch ... helo or plane deathmatch (the one with the biplanes!) .. also nice if you find some piloteers and tankers to do it.. PvP or TvT ... lol another one Team vs. Team ... some abbrevations are slightly redunant or meaning (almost) the same ... there is no gamers 'Duden' yet (or gamers 'merriam-websters')


And since OFP there are many more gamemodes invented ... like Assassin, Last Man Standing, Serial Killer, Saharani Life, Search & Rescue, Evasion & Escape, Sabotage, etc... many could be PvP, TvT or Coop or mix...
Although often they kinda mix and mingle various basic gamemodes with each other or changing objectives ...
Dont let your mind being boggled by stupid terms by stupid gamers :P ... me included ...
Often its just geek brabble ...
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-19 12:30:55

Excellent stuff man, thanks for writing all that. Now I begin to get much more cleared picture.

However... (yeah I know, there is always the however), I still feel that within the ranks of pro MP teams/clans there is fine difference between these game modes, like the mentioned PvP turning into TDM. But you basically said that I should not get caught by the terms too much right (especially scaring if XYZ turns into ZYX)?
Search & Rescue, Evasion & Escape
These terms got my interest. Is there more to them, or just fancy terms again?

I'm especially interested of search and rescue missions which I created for OFP myself too. I have no idea if you ever seen, but we had great mission situations on "PMC Search and Rescue 2" mission, stock BIS units on Nogova, was it like 4 men specops team in 1km random radius with insane enemy random patrols trying to find them, then US forces from airbase fly in with blackhawks supported by cobras and hit them hard, land, rescue and fly back to base. Man that mission was intense, sometimes when the rescue was in process and T80 platoons advancing, infantry firing... seconds turned into minutes when climbing on board that waiting Blackhawk hehe :)

Anyways.

To move along from this point, would you have more precise mission examples for PvP and AD, regarding victory conditions and how the player slots are setup (all human or some AI?) etc?

One more thing, AD is Attack & Defend, but CH was Capture & Hold... err was the CH real term or just my imagination and if it was, whats the difference of AD? :)
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Vigilante » 2009-05-19 15:07:33

I am not a instance in saying whats right or wrong, see my note 'dont take it too seriously' as my disclaimer... ;)

A&D in my terms is what i wrote, C&H is actually some place to capture and hold as long as possible, be it empty place or defended by opponent Playerteam or AI or third fraction or alienspacebots or whatnot...
Actually C&H is like SectorControl or the other way around? But C&H is rather one objective to capture and, well, hold ... whereas SectorControl is mostly several sectors, but could be one single too, that need to be controlled/hold for long as possible ... it could be by score ie for each minute a sector is hold the holding side gets 1 point, or each minute a side holds more than the other side they get those points...
Or C&H a castle till some time is over, the one holding it then is winner, or again for each minute they score ... or both ...
Thats the problem with freedom inside this wonderful gameengine ... i rather make the mission nice and intense and then care about the naming.

Well Search&Rescue or Evasion&Escape could be objectives rather than gamemodi, but somehow are gamemodi ... :roll:
For example the one SAR you mentioned would be Coop ... if the enemy would be players, then it will be a PvP or TvT ... :oops:
So its somehow flexible ... if there are player versus player its a PvP its not if they fight bots... if they are collected in teams you might call it TvT but its still PvP because thats the opposite to Coop which seems to be always against AI ... but in my mind Coop could be TvT too ... i think it depends if comms are used ... without comms its TvT or PvP with comms its always Coop ??
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-19 20:14:51

Okay what about this:
Would you have more precise mission examples for PvP and AD for example, regarding victory conditions and how the player slots are setup (all human or some AI?) etc?
I did one defend LZ mission where 4 helicopters (pilots available to humans) insert 4 squads (squad leader slots available to humans) into a LZ defended by OPFOR. The problem is now that IF the server is NOT running full capacity, then the human pilots cant insert the AI troops and if the pilot is AI, then well you know how lazy the AI is to land sometimes. So far that mission would require 8 players alone for the one side to fill the 4 helicopters with 4 squads inside (4+4)...

So the problem is that are PvP missions sometimes required to have "all humans" setup, ie if you have 12 player slots but server only has 10 players logged in, sorry you cant play that mission then. Or how does these things work, is there any workaround for example to have helicopter insertion in PvP setup (or is all normal PvP's just inf vs inf stuff?).

Victory conditions were just plain simple in my defend LZ mission, when either side is dead... other side wins, hehe not much intelligence there :)
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-20 10:49:11

I have now read several posts, talked with my friend again and I'm starting to get clearer picture what the multiplayer game modes are. I have updated the first post with overview of all this.

These are my conclusions with copy pastes elsewhere, I make no claim that these are "facts" and stuff, feel absolutely free to correct me and I'll update the list again. Also some parts are empty as I don't yet understand / know about them.

Here is the text I added to first post:


Attack & Defend - A&D. The basic preset is that one side has some objective. I.e the US AirCav has to land and search a Village for a weapons cache with the OPFOR defending or trying to stop Force A (the US) from achieving that goal. That would be the VC lying around in bushes with the pretext of ambushing the US guys. Usually those A&D are more conventional with a clear frontline and two regular army units facing off each other. A&D is like COOP but with humans on both sides. Score by kill everyone at an objective or hold some sector or destroy some Object/Unit on the Map, etc... well, A&Ds are really free for all winning conditions.

Capture & Hold - C&H. Its actually some place to capture and hold as long as possible, be it empty place or defended by opponent player team or AI or third fraction etc. Score by hold area and get points for it, timeLimit + sometimes killing too.

Capture The Flag - CTF. Capture enemys flag and bring it to your base while guarding your own flag. Score by flags (obviously) and timeLimit + sometimes killing too.

Capture The Island - CTI. Warfare is CTI.

Cooperative - COOP. Is always humans against AI. This is propably the most common gamemode today.

Death Match - DM. Everybody against everybody. Score by killing everyone, highest score wins after timelimit.

Flag Fight - FF. 2 or more teams fighting for 1 flag, hidden or place somewhere central.

Player versus Player - PvP. Humans on BLUFOR and OPFOR side fighting each other in organized way with objectives and similar tasks.

Sector Control - SC. Capture and control sectors. Score by hold area and get points for it, timeLimit + sometimes killing too.

Sniper Death Match - SDM. ???. Two sectors spaced quite far apart, with some enterable no-mans-land inbetween. The sides are restricted only frontal approach possible... and a large tower (castle tower) was there ... so you mainly snipe at the others... if you got bored or crazy, you tried to charge through no-mans-land with an assaultrifle, hopping from nicely, but sparingly, placed trash/cover to the next... zigzagging to avoid being shot right away.

Team Death Match - TDM. Score by Killing enemy guys, but not your side.

Team versus Team - TvT.
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Re: Multiplayer game modes PvP, COOP, AD etc

Post by Snake Man » 2009-05-24 12:47:00

I have now created topic on my PMC MP conclusions, those are generic in nature so we'll just refer to them in this topic.

After my experience this past week doing a real PvP missions the first time, there are few issues I found out.

- Free player slots regarding available players is very difficult to control. Too may? Too few? Argh!
- If PvP is all human and the mission is very long, who wants to get stuck in seagull for 30 minutes before mission ends?
- To have human squad leaders for AI squads with group respawn is very "nice" to make enjoyable mission, but not everyone likes having AI in their squad.
- All human PvP on small servers... seem to be very small, what can you do with 5-6 guys eh?
- On average, people didn't like Pvp, how come? Just coincidence that whiners were PvP haters or is this more common?

Also I have the impression that PvP missions are always non respawn ones as they are organized and so on, I mean it would go totally rambo if PvP squad would respawn back to base... or would it?

Hmm I'll post more when my thoughts settle from last nights crueling 12 hour multiplayer session... :shock:
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