THR Creator

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Luk
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Re: THR Creator

Post by Luk » 2010-08-11, 07:21:55 AM

Yes, my test confirmed the aspects, you were watching ccc.

But in conclusion you can get lower cost:
standard links with "rivered" thr for wheel - value 45 > 19 (no rivers thr + dont link bridge or 20 with linked)
So you can have faster 2D movements even for theater with buggy/unfinished layout.
BTW - our river is situated in valley between objectives
ccc said:
- you also do a no-river(plain) test.. i assumed you use plain type tile?
As I said in one of previous post:
Luk said:
there is already function to convert everything to plain in thrcreator. You can choose "no road or/and no river" and overall terrain type as well (seen in rollout menu).
Image

Its an option without aditional workload. Just select "farm/plains" for your thr.
You can also select "Urban" as a background for your terrain - I guess you will not need any roads in that case :lol: (did not test)

So I guess thrcreator is good option for "fast/instant" + working theaters - even for those without good defined tiles (at least in 2D).
I think I will not use this feature for EU, because AF campaign is interesting with bridges and engeneers can repair them...

Luk

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-11, 08:27:57 AM

Ah~THANX Luk!! my bad, now i understand...i totally mess up 2d and 3d world / war!

[ TacEdit ] is for editing 2D world,
[ THR creator ] is used to generate 2D background map/terrain = exclusively for TacEdit use.

so THR creator can easily change ALL background terrain into other terrain TYPES!

yes, this quick edit can lower move cost value easily- the only variables are slope and distance between objectives.

HA~ i think.. we probably don't have to bother with a well-done 3D terrain work now.. For a falcon campaign/ground war to win, it's all 2D world thing - ground units moving along network links/routes, capturing objective spots, then end the war. We can use this quick terrain type THR to create " fast highway " combat routes!

excution:
first, keep [default THR] and [default obj-linking network] as basic 2d world.
second, use THR creator to generate a new THR( option: with or without river, terrain type=Farm/Plain ). Use this new THR, re-link the objectives along desired main combat routes in TacEdit! Ideally we can thus create "low move cost highways" for main battle area, while preserve the default move-cost of other areas.

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Re: THR Creator

Post by Luk » 2010-08-11, 10:02:16 AM

excution:
first, keep [default THR] and [default obj-linking network] as basic 2d world.
second, use THR creator to generate a new THR( option: with or without river, terrain type=Farm/Plain ). Use this new THR, re-link the objectives along desired main combat routes in TacEdit! Ideally we can thus create "low move cost highways" for main battle area, while preserve the default move-cost of other areas.
It is possible ccc. But I guess for very few paths/roads, you can make it by hand - just double click the links.

BTW - I am not sure about it, but I think thr file is used for something during the 2D campaign also(located in camp. folder). I guess it is not one time/single shot in purpose (not just for linkeage work). I guess 2D campaign engine uses the links to count fastes way. What happenes if it chooses some way according your "enhanced/tricky" link? Imagine very fast link - value 3. But there are 20nm rocky mountain and no road in real 3D (exaggerated, but good sample). Do the units so fast movement in 2D? Dunno.
I guess they choose the best way according to linkeage, then move at speed according to linkeage, but follows the paths according to thr placed in campaign directory(sounds most logical to me).
I guess the unit in 3D uses just order from 2D and it moves according to tile type, path and slope.

I have some rough idea about 2d/3d differences. You fly 3D - units are moving/fighting inside your bubble, trying to folow paths, defined for particular tiles. They start danceing when meet a river with destroyed bridge. Planes will stack in taxiway in unleveled airbase. Planes are waiting in carrier under-deck even minutes after planned takeoff time(AF case- thats why I put carriers far away+ outside fly routes). A10's are toasted by nearby SA-8...BUT - you just left the area, your bubble is away (or u are just back in the 2D UI)- armored units are crossing the river (you have enhanced thr in camp directory), planes takeing off from unleveled AB and AC carrier, A10s are toasting SA-8s + nearby armors in excellent way...

I guess you can achive good result in use enhanced thr. But it should be close to your terrain layout at least in some acpects. I guess 3D -> 2D pass could be sensitive to some stronger tricks.

Luk

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-11, 12:22:18 PM

BTW - I am not sure about it, but I think thr file is used for something during the 2D campaign also(located in camp. folder). I guess it is not one time/single shot in purpose (not just for linkeage work).
hmm.. i assume the THR file is used for one time : when i create a new link - TacEdit calls out THR file for terrain data(river, road, tile type, and probably slope) along the link, then generates out [move cost values]. Once the values determined, they are saved into *.cam file/ the linking netowrk data. In 2D world/map, it's a world of obj-linking network - totally abstractive.
I guess 2D campaign engine uses the links to count fastes way. What happenes if it chooses some way according your "enhanced/tricky" link? Imagine very fast link - value 3. But there are 20nm rocky mountain and no road in real 3D (exaggerated, but good sample). Do the units so fast movement in 2D? Dunno.
In 2D world, i think ground units will definitely choose the "fast ways".. they won't care what terrain in 3D world.
sure, i got test to prove it.
I guess they choose the best way according to linkeage, then move at speed according to linkeage, but follows the paths according to thr placed in campaign directory(sounds most logical to me).
moving along Path, or road definition in THR.. long time ago i also emphasize on completing "continuous road network - in 2D-THR/3D" for a sound, working campaign. BUT Fred said gound units won't need roads to move.. Can ground unit move from A to B on no-road tiles/terrain?
Got to test it.
I have some rough idea about 2d/3d differences. You fly 3D - units are moving/fighting inside your bubble, trying to folow paths, defined for particular tiles. They start danceing when meet a river with destroyed bridge. Planes will stack in taxiway in unleveled airbase. Planes are waiting in carrier under-deck even minutes after planned takeoff time(AF case- thats why I put carriers far away+ outside fly routes). A10's are toasted by nearby SA-8...BUT - you just left the area, your bubble is away (or u are just back in the 2D UI)- armored units are crossing the river (you have enhanced thr in camp directory), planes takeing off from unleveled AB and AC carrier, A10s are toasting SA-8s + nearby armors in excellent way...
Exactly. you'll find ground units cross rivers in 2D but stop in 3D - unless you also complete every bit of 3D terrain work- bridges, path definition, etc. The 2D-3D dismatch is noted in several WIP theater mods, you can find AI ac taking off from some airbase properly in 2D map, but you and your AI wingman unable to take off in 3D world.

well, i've to admit this THR/linking tweak is a lazy trick to avoid 3D terrain work.

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-11, 02:03:14 PM

i check another obj-linkng sample in afghan... yes, it become's a highway for ground unit movement!!

Code: Select all

                                       foot            wheel           track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
normal THR                        104              255          208
no River THR                      123              255          247
no river+road THR               204              255          255
terrain-farm/plain THR         35                107          71

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Re: THR Creator

Post by Snake Man » 2010-08-11, 02:22:57 PM

If you're using Afghanistan, I highly recommend you check or re-do the texture.bin paths, there is no certainty that they are properly made.
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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-11, 04:21:39 PM

i knew afghan mod has buggy texture.bin.

so.. i pick Georgia for campaign test. the result is no joy.

i try to create a new linking from CIS to Georgia, the porti tunnel. obj from CIS Nizhniy to Georgia Tskhinavli. it crosses moutaneous area.
since it's one single link, i did not use THR creator, just keyin low move cost values for all GU types. then move dozens of CIS GU along this line.
well, The CIS GUs won't move from one end to the other. With default THR, those close to CIS land returning back to CIS land along roads, and those close to Tskhinvali becomes static. the movement are still following THR roads, not the direct line between two obj.
then i test wtih no-river/plain THR, same result, GU won't take it as plain land.
then test with no-river, no-road/plain THR.. even worse.. this time only fewer GU move back to CIS..it seems they lost path guide.

SO - a well-contructed road/path system with Terrainview, remains to be the base of everything. GU won't follow a straight obj-linking line..evne with tweaked THR..no shortcut. that's what im impressed with latest tests.

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Re: THR Creator

Post by Snake Man » 2010-08-11, 08:44:52 PM

Sigh, no I didn't mean you need to stop using Afghanistan theater and start using incomplete Georgia which doesn't have all links done. You cannot test when the links are in-complete, even the air war is effected by linking, there is clear difference on air campaign between few links and fully linked versions.
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Re: THR Creator

Post by demer928 » 2010-08-11, 09:10:16 PM

Snake Man wrote:Sigh, no I didn't mean you need to stop using Afghanistan theater and start using incomplete Georgia which doesn't have all links done. You cannot test when the links are in-complete, even the air war is effected by linking, there is clear difference on air campaign between few links and fully linked versions.
X'actly!!!!!

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-12, 02:38:29 AM

Well, i am really tired of exploring this 2D ground war now.

before i stop doing it, few last impressions:

- Luk is right. THR still affect the GU movement in 2d world. TCL-placed GUs, if right on tough terrain/water, they will become immobilized.
BUT, all plain terrain THR does not make GUs running everywhere, they need roads, in 2D world.

- Biker is right. obj-linking better follow the road on THR. if the road turns too sharp.. you may need adding a junction type obj to help GU moving toward right direction.

- A working ground war is based on TerrainView work first( complete, contineous road network), then generating a correct THR, then obj-linking following the THR, then placing GUs properly. The editing, or fixing of a theater/campaign mod, still have to go back to its original part - Fixiing road system in TerrainView.

I admit it's impossible to skip the tough, boring part and just start from easier THR/TacEdit in 2d world.

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-13, 02:49:41 AM

more thoughts about CAM and THR file relationship..

- Obj-linking network and move cost data are stored in CAM file, to helo GU AI choose routes.

- THR are generated with Texture.bin( tile type, river, road ) and Theater.L2 (elevation/slope), so it's a simplified digitized map for 2d world/war.

- so, once GU AI chooses its way via CAM, the real movement is based on THR terrain in 2d map. it may explain why i manually lowered move cost in CAM, GU chose and approach the route in the begining, BUT unable to pass it in the end.

just to emphaize that CAM(Tacedit work) is for choosing routes only.. the real GU movement on 2d map counts on THR -- the basic terrain work with TerranView and Pathmaker makes good THR.

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-14, 03:18:15 AM

errr.. third thought about THR and 2d war.

- For a long time i want to seperate 2d and 3d war by making "fast highways" in 2d world to speed up campaigns. i mistakenly think CAM is the only file for 2d war.. now i know 2D war is based on CAM+THR files.

- When THR creator available, i mistakenly think i can save lots effort by removing unwanted features/changing terrain type, thus creating "fast highways"... now i know THR creator still miss functoins to edit the digitized terrain... first, creating roads. second, levaling or flattening the slope or terrain.
I know, creating roads and leveling terrain are the job with TerrainView but, IF we can do it quickly in a THR/relief map drawing style, don't bother to work hard in TerrainView, such "fast highways in 2d world" may be doable - then "seperating 2d and 3d war" could be a reality.
If no shortcut to do it, the standard way is doing road-tiling and levelling in TerrainView, then generating new THR for CAM use.

Of course, not everybody like my "seperating 2d/3d war" idea.. since Falcon campaign code is built to FUSE 2d/3d war.
However, this "fast highway in 2d" has some merits..an example is Poti tunnel in Georgia theater:
The Poti tunnel running thru moutains, is the fastest way to send heavy GUs to Georgia capital Tifilis by CIS. To reproduce this, creating a abstract fast highway in 2d world is the best solution.. but i failed in past months due to misunderstanding of THR/CAM.
Now i come up a new idea - if no quick way to do the tunnel, i have to do it in TerrainView/then generate a [dedicated THR] for CAM /2d world use, while the 3d world will keep the original Theater.l2. In this way, CIS may move fast thru abstract tunnel in 2d, but nothing visible or happen in 3d. ( sure, hostile air strike can hit GUs running thru tunnel in 2D! if GUs move fast enough, the impact of air strike may be minimal).

Another field can use this "seperate 2d/3d world - abstract fast highway" is [ Island to Island theaters ]. In 3d world/theater l2, no solid GU-movable road connecting islands. IF we pave plain-road tiles to connect islands, let GU move fast thru them, generate a [Dedicated THR/CAM obj-linking]( = a seperate 2d map), we may simulate a true, continous amphibous landing/GU reinforcement, thus get rid of "show up time setting" for a fake amphibous landing. this tweak, if work, may benefit theaters like Taiwan and Kurile.
As i mentioned above, GUs moving in 2d map may draw air attack.. so, if GUs move fast and the "sea-road" is short, the impact could be minimal. the slower GU move or longer sea-road, GUs may suffer more loss. The only odd thing is, you may find GUs floating/static in sea in 3D world :mrgreen:

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-14, 08:58:31 AM

fourth thought .. sounds like talk to myself.

i did some test about "seperating 2d and 3d war" - the result is NO GO.

Appearantly falcone terrain/campaign engine is tightly linked- 2D and 3D world are linked - and the junction file is THR !!!
THR is NOT a simplified map, it's a REAL digitized terrain converted from Texture.bin and theater.l2,
and MOST of all, THR file is used for BOTH 2D and 3D world!! ( one THR, called for both 2d and 3d ! ).

=================
My failure test on "seperate 2d/3d world - abstract fast highway" [ Island to Island theaters ]:
- i pick Kurile theater, use TerranView, i pave a new road with plain-road tiles, linking south end of CIS Kurile island and NW end of CIS-occupied Hokkaido land. i run THR creator to generate a new THR.
- i use TacEdit to open save0.cam, load NEW THR, yes it shows a NEW road connecting the two islands. i create new OBJ link, move obj to align along the road and get LOW move cost. i move some CIS GUs to this sea-road for test.
- in 2D map, run at 64x time compression. yes, GUS moving along the new sea-road back to Kurile. it proves this new road work and can move at high speed.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192 ... 6/wwww.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192 ... 1fwdsf.jpg

- now come to the poor part. in 3D world, i see NEW road tiles connecting the island. I assumed tweaked THR is only for 2d world, but it also affect 3D world! i test in 3D with original Theater.L2 and sea-road-tweak-Theater.l2, the result is the same. SO, ONE THR is for both 2D and 3D world.
-BTW when paving roads in sea tile, it also affects all shared sea tiles.. i knew, the sector must be splited via TerrainView.
===================

Though the "seperate 2d/3d world " test is not very successful, it does bring some conclusions:

- Creating new " fast highway" is doable, but it should match in both 2D and 3D world. so, creating a [Poti tunnel for Georgia theater] is doable.. the major difference from Kurile test is, its elevation should be flattened to achieve low move cost ( kurile one is sea level =0). Also in 3D world it will look like a deep valley running thru moutains.

- Since THR presents precisely every bit of terrain, Placing obectives and obj-linking line on [THR-Relief map roads] precisely is very important!! The more precise you place, the more closer you follow the tortuous road data on THR-relief map, the LOWER move cost you get!! That's why you have to add junction type obj to help shaping obj-linking lines!

- For kurile/ island-island type SEA-road idea, it's still doable - if somebody still insist on such bulky, continous flow of GUs as amphibous landing.
The solution is [ creating a NEW set of plain-road tiles, but all painted as generic SEA texture. no road texture, but have road definition on tiles ]. The new tiles allow GU to move along invisible roads, but look like generic sea tile. In this way, it fits 2D world functionality, and fits 3d world visual effect. The only thing to noted is, Shared sea tile sectors should be splited via TerrainView, or ALL other normal sea tiles will be affected.
Last edited by Snake Man on 2010-08-14, 10:13:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THR Creator

Post by Snake Man » 2010-08-14, 10:26:07 AM

ccc wrote:fourth thought .. sounds like talk to myself.
But there are lot of people (I'm sure) reading your posts and I'm personally very interested and happy that you're posting this stuff. Its golden to save them into the forum for safe keeping and for everyone to read.

Keep it up.

... just watch the image sizes :lol:
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Re: THR Creator

Post by Luk » 2010-08-14, 10:30:39 AM

You were faster with your fourth thought ccc (I was slow, because I celebrated 33 yesterday uff). I red your 3rd thought and wanted to propose similar solution, you have posted. The only difference is - I think you need just one new tile for sea. You can define crossing paths (┼) for this tile. Then you dont need to care about junctions/directions - it is connected to all. But you need at least 3 new tiles for mountains tunnel - tweaked mountain tile + 2 transition tiles(better 4 transitions).

If you want to make very long tunnel/sea route, I guess you would use very simple tdf file + CATE.
You can define just 2 points in tdf and tile 300 nm long route across many segments.

Searoute.tdf

Code: Select all

ROAD 2 x1,y1 x2,y2 0
your CATE config would be also very simple:

Code: Select all

TDFFileName="your path to Searoute.tdf"

[FeaturesDesc]
Tile=No1 1/No2 2/No2 3/No2 4/No2 5/No2 6/No2 7/No2 8/No2 9/No2 10/No2 11/No2 12/No2 13/No2 14/No2 15/No2
[EndFeaturesDesc]
No1 - sea tile number
No2 - your tweaked sea tile(┼)

I guess the only drawback of such a solution is, you can see your sea paths on AG radar.

BTW I think it would be also cool to link UK to continental Europe in Eu theater.
For ambhipious would be nice to place static ship near to beach and draw the path just from ship to beach, then place units into ships x,y.

I am not sure I understand well :
I assumed tweaked THR is only for 2d world, but it also affect 3D world! i test in 3D with original Theater.L2 and sea-road-tweak-Theater.l2, the result is the same. SO, ONE THR is for both 2D and 3D world.
Do you mean GU were proceeding to island in 3D (over the water)?
If so, it is great.

I still think thr file is quite simplified compared to 3D. I am not sure it stores exact information about junktion type for example. I guess it is quite resistant to some tiling errors - for example this "─ ─ ─ ─ ┐─ ─ ─ ─ ─" is not problem for thr, I think.
So I guess you can define just very small path vector in your tweaked sea tile and your 2D war would be ok. In 3D you will see just small dots on AG radar.

Luk
Last edited by Luk on 2010-08-16, 09:08:42 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: THR Creator

Post by demer928 » 2010-08-14, 05:58:21 PM

ccc,

Finding the Relationship's of What FILE's TacEdit open's and modifie's is iffy at best.MOST it use's as a Resource only to store the info in the .cam file.Some it directly modifie's due to our Edit's.
GU movement relie's Heavily on a few file's that the VU2 engine READ's.It also relie's heavily on the particular Code version.

Your Test's and Observation's are interesting and in my Newbie Opinion...valuable.
The reason I say this, is because, I stopped Hacking @ AF\BMS as soon as FF3 came out... :mrgreen:
I've known for a long time what work's\does'nt work in FF due to trial and error. But,the code\DB's keep evolving in FF and that keep's my interest!!!(Ahhh...O.K. they changed this over here..How doe's that relate to what my current project is??)

Hopefully, soon,someone can post up "How to Get the GTM to do what You Want" in your campaign's.
I know from recent experience,what I Edit in FF .cam doe's NOT work for AF...... :x Wish it did,but too many difference's in the code and DB's!!!!

Regard's,
demer

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Re: THR Creator

Post by Malc » 2010-08-25, 03:03:18 PM

Heya,

I tried this on an India/Pakistan theater I been playing round with, I have a custom tiles expanded texture.bin/zip too, but getting a subscript out of range error.

I know VB6 quite well - can i have the source code for this tool please?!

Cheers!

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Re: THR Creator

Post by ccc » 2010-08-25, 03:30:11 PM

an India/Pakistan theater? :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: THR Creator

Post by Malc » 2010-08-25, 03:48:37 PM

ccc wrote:an India/Pakistan theater? :shock: :shock: :shock:
Yes and no... I'm just messing around really. It all started as me playing round with Photoshop trying to get half-good at creating textures and I made some natty looking green fields and thought it would be fun to import them into AF (speed, easy, etc) to see what they looked like. They looked okay so I made some city textures, and an Airbase in the City group. This is supposed to be Lahore, with Walton Airbase. Nothing serious (just now)...

Image

Image

PS - I reckon this would make a great theater - mostly flat in the main area of conflict, no mountains to hide behind, etc. - bring a whole new approach to A-G, and SEAD/DEAD especially, missions. :twisted:

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Re: THR Creator

Post by Sherlock » 2010-08-25, 04:31:23 PM

Malc wrote:Heya,
I tried this on an India/Pakistan theater I been playing round with, I have a custom tiles expanded texture.bin/zip too, but getting a subscript out of range error.
I know VB6 quite well - can i have the source code for this tool please?!
Cheers!
Malc,
I think this is the source to Phoenix's THR creator: http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/downloads ... -11-09.rar
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Re: THR Creator

Post by Malc » 2010-08-25, 04:49:34 PM

Excellent, many thanks Rod!
Sherlock wrote:
Malc wrote:Heya,
I tried this on an India/Pakistan theater I been playing round with, I have a custom tiles expanded texture.bin/zip too, but getting a subscript out of range error.
I know VB6 quite well - can i have the source code for this tool please?!
Cheers!
Malc,
I think this is the source to Phoenix's THR creator: http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/downloads ... -11-09.rar

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Re: THR Creator

Post by Malc » 2010-08-26, 08:59:29 AM

Short video showing tiles... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mlv3JVkG5w

Sorry Snake, I know this is off topic :|

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