- mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Europe theater

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derStef
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- mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by derStef » 2008-07-28 10:23:12

i have figured out that the problem with the standard europe1/save0.cam was that there were too much objectives on the ground.

so i decided, for a quick test, to remove all factories which were southwestern of Paris/France.
for further actions, we should sort it better out...but that was just for testing.
@SM, i'll look for, what the max. objects are.

i'm collecting all useful stuff for the campaign creation:
Real life OrderOfBattles from that timeline are VERY improtatnt for a "realistic" campaign creation, as you know.

i've found a nice NATO 1989 OOB.pdf and a encyclopedia about US military stuff shortly after ODS1990.
here is the link: http://www.mediafire.com/?kblx91lhegg

please throw alos all your relevant stuff here into that threat.
what we need is espezially eastblock OOBs!!! Molni?

EVERY help is appreciated!!!

thanks, AND NOW we can hope to get THIS baby rolling!

Wish us all good luck! :wink:

cheers
Stef
Last edited by derStef on 2008-07-29 14:44:41, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by ccc » 2008-07-28 10:39:16

bear with me,

please test road network first!

you don't have to test all road network, just the main combat area/routes.

in TE, use several tank units to test the road - make sure they can mover freely!

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Post by derStef » 2008-07-28 10:48:51

:) , ok, will check it out!

ccc wrote:bear with me,

please test road network first!

you don't have to test all road network, just the main combat area/routes.

in TE, use several tank units to test the road - make sure they can mover freely!

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Post by Snake Man » 2008-07-28 12:21:29

And I'm going to be strict on this one... this project will be unofficial and "illegal" unless you document all the edits. I have said this million times; document the squadrons to which airbases you add them, all ground unit battalions and their locations, sam sites, etc etc...

This information then can be used to create the TCL scripts.

Frankly, you should learn how to edit TCL scripts yourself because you're just wasting your time if you edit campaigns manually. Trust me on this one, when you use TCL scripts you save time.

We'll create the campaign using TCL scripts so either you edit manually, give the documentation to me and I'll use TCLs to create campaigns, or you do it yourself, its same to me.
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Post by ccc » 2008-07-28 12:35:50

relax SM.

i think he's just trying to do a test.. tweaking here and there, see if the mod can be developed further...

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Post by derStef » 2008-07-28 14:06:44

ccc wrote:relax SM.

i think he's just trying to do a test.. tweaking here and there, see if the mod can be developed further...

yeah, as ccc said, just testing. no need to be so harsh, Snake Man...
but is it also "illegal", if i just do the edits for my OWN? no sharing with others?

Some dudes form the FF BETA dev group found out that ground units often move not correctly (or do not move), if they are inserted via TLC scripts....hmmm :roll:

btw shouldn't you/we be glad, that there are ppl outside who want to bring your babies to an higher level? :roll: IN A TEAM?

again, as ccc said, i'm just looking if it could be developed further...
so NO stress...
------------------

made a TE, as you said ccc, only for blue/NATO at first. road linking seems pretty ok around the FLOT!


cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-07-28 15:49:53

Snakeman, once I tried to figure out how should I START to use TCL scripts. I spent a half a day with searching and learning. Do you want to hear the result? A BIG nothing!

There are many flags and other feature, very hard to set them without a good sotware. For ex. if you want to set an object for capturing you have to know the camp ID of the object. EVERY editing process is much more easies via tacedit. And what about supply and reinforcements? I know that you can use them but not everybody is a programmer...

I choose rather the Tacedit because I know more or less what I can do with them and I can use NOW fast and easily I don't have other 6 month learn something that is not necessary to success.
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Post by Luk » 2008-07-29 13:58:08

hi derstef
I can not see your NATO OOB pdf(deadlink?), but I have
pdf file called:
"NATO ORDER OF BATTLE 1989 V3.0" -
- it is PDF file of 1,13 MB size, 153 pages
Perhaps it is the same, if not I can send it to you.

I am starting to collect all my stuff to be usefull for you.
I want to prepare it a little bit graphical for easy placeing.

So do not waste your time with CZ now. But I have some materials for East Germany and Poland too. I will not focus on Hungary.

Pitty I will be without internet next few days, so be patient please.

I will prepare separated aircrafts OOB for 1989 and 1985 campaigns.
More important is 1989 for now.

if you cannot wait for my inputs, or want to prepare some W-Pact countries by yourself, here is a supperior link with 1990(89) OOB:
http://www.mil-airfields.de/index.htm

There are not numbers, but it dont mind for us, squadrons are important.

Luk

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-07-29 14:42:08

1. Don't hurry, we have time.

2. I will do the hungarian OBB with same idea that you have explaind I will put on a map every data with labels and notes.

3. Do not touch the dabase. We can't do anything until FF5 won't come out becasue it will have a brand new and clean database.

Patience, patience, patience. We have to agree PLENTY of thnig becasue doing ANYTHING. I will be glad if we can create only the '89 scenario and we can release within 1 year. This is not as an easy task as you can imagine, reqiures lots of work and testing.

Only ONE person have to do ALL edits that will be worked out after we agree what should we want to change or upgrade. So we have to put in a document a COMPLETE OBB for ALL squadrons, sam units and a more - or less detailed concept for other ground units.

The OBB doucment that you wrote is the same as our. Correct.
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Post by derStef » 2008-07-29 14:56:28

@luk:

DL link works now. well one file is the same as you told about. thx for the link.
well, i have time, i can wait until you can give us the data/refs/infos! nice that you'll help us, thanks man!

@Molni: Yes, totally right, we have to wait for the new FF5 and its new DB!
hope it comes out soon. :wink:
thanks also that you also will give the info in a map! cheers
Only ONE person have to do ALL edits that will be worked out after we agree what should we want to change or upgrade. So we have to put in a document a COMPLETE OBB for ALL squadrons, sam units and a more - or less detailed concept for other ground units.

The OBB doucment that you wrote is the same as our. Correct.
Exactly. thats the ONLY way. who wants to write it? :)


@ Snake Man: my tweak has 12240 objects....

again, thanks to all!


cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-07-29 16:46:36

Exactly. thats the ONLY way. who wants to write it?
We are far that time when we have to decide this.


So, what did you do exactly to reaching editing? Does the objects only counts, battalions and brigades don't? Can put into any qty.?
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Post by derStef » 2008-07-30 09:34:25

molni, what do you mean:

-what i want do edit?
OR
-what i have removed to get no CTDs.?



i have removed all ground units and all ACs
and as i already said, i removed the factories in southwestern France..

THEN i started to add ACs and brigardes.

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-07-30 11:55:21

OK, but how can we know what is the upper limit for battalions and squadrons? So the qty. the obj. + battalions + brigades = constant or not? Does qty. of objc. only count or not?
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Post by derStef » 2008-07-30 14:13:50

molnibalage wrote:OK, but how can we know what is the upper limit for battalions and squadrons? So the qty. the obj. + battalions + brigades = constant or not? Does qty. of objc. only count or not?
ahh :idea: !
now i understand what you mean!

well, i don't know, haven't tested how much groundunits and sqs are the upper limit, but also there might be an upper limit.
but for now i've added ~90 SQs, 120 Airdefence battalions, 5 brigardes....

so, all i can say for now is that the main problem with the standard save0.cam was, that there were too much objects.

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Post by ccc » 2008-07-30 14:37:24

my .002c here,

- i have not heard you define or test the road network / combat routes yet.. i think it's better to make sure the roads are open before adding units and squadrons.

- in deafult korea, seoul to p'yongyang is about 130nm, to Wonson 100nm, and to Pusan 180 nm. use the distance as a guide, i mean all plain terrain, RV tiger spirit takes 4-5 days to win- thats around 100-130nm. for pusan to p'yongyang- if no bridges broken-probably take 10-14 days. if you define a win condition using some german city as center point, you may define the time-to-win value by picking an adequate obj at eastern and western sides, distance ranging from 100-200nm.

based on this win/lose defined obj, test the road system.

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-07-30 16:27:30

There are many issue before we add units.

1. A Better PAK map. Is there anyhone here who has skill for this?

2. Maybe a tri file for events.
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Post by ccc » 2008-07-31 01:13:57

1. A Better PAK map. Is there anyhone here who has skill for this?
SM can do it.. and i remember Closter did help make a new PAK file for Taiwan theater.

the other thing to "drw" is nation border lines on 2d map.
2. Maybe a tri file for events.
tri file creation is very easy. check PMC tut wiki and deafult korea tri files, you'll find there's no new trick.

of course, tri file do help orienting red and blue ground forces to their objectives.. just pick the adequate obj and check the road network, armies can move/fight along the routes.

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-07-31 06:42:45

Yes, we can use the tri files of korea just we have to modify the objects ID numbers.

I don't know too much about road network...
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Post by derStef » 2008-07-31 20:22:37

ccc wrote:my .002c here,

- i have not heard you define or test the road network / combat routes yet.. i think it's better to make sure the roads are open before adding units and squadrons.
well, i've done some early TE tests as you mentioned. movement from blue to redside is ok. major routs work ok.

cheers
Stef

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Post by ccc » 2008-08-01 01:38:44

well, i've done some early TE tests as you mentioned. movement from blue to redside is ok. major routs work ok.
great.

if you can confrim the road is completely open for ground units, and connects a blue obj to a red obj. the template TE has good chance to be edited for a campaign.

the roads or routes connecting two target obj, better ranges from 100-200nm, may allow a war lasting 7-14 days. don't add too many ac sq in the begining - let the ground war rolling, then fine-tune it with air units...sometimes one or two CAS ac sq may flip the balance aggressively.

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-01 16:38:16

ok, thanks for the hints and tips.
should i really start it with an TE and then convert it to a .cam file?
problem: in TE the FLOT/coutnryboarder is totally messed up. Just one straight line from north to south....

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-02 09:09:26

I'm starting to add more ground units now.

Does anybody know EXACTLY which flags should set? Parent & Ordered, what else?
another question: how should i name all the groundbattallions in the brigardes, because i think it is a problem if 2 or more battalions have the same name (example: 23rd battalion). is that right what i'm saying?

for now i will work like this:

1st div
1st brig
1st-5rd battalion
2nd brig
6-10nd battalion
3 brig
11-15nd battalion
and so on.. just to be sure that there are no battalions with the same name/number, because that causes in CTDs i think.

is that ok, or is there a better idea around?

BTW whats the difference between "Assault" and "Capture"? what means "commando"?

thanks for your help!

cheers
Stef

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Post by ccc » 2008-08-02 09:45:22

for naming ground units, i think you can keep it simple..

Code: Select all

Div 1 > Brg1 > battlion 1-5
        > Brg 2  > battlion 1-5.   and so on.

Div2 > brg 1 > batlion 1-5
the naming system won't affect anything, just names. AFAIK the maximal # is 250 or 255.
BTW whats the difference between "Assault" and "Capture"? what means "commando"?
hmm.. it seems these orders only work for TE. in my taiwan campaign test, i do use these orders, but i didn't get conclusive result.. means they won't be more aggressive. i also check default korea campaigns.. well all- or most of the ground units have no order in the begining of war! - maybe the ground war maneuvoring is guided by TRI file?

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-02 10:23:20

Thanks ccc!
i'll go on with the ground units numberation as you told me.
uhm, yes i also think that the movement has something to do with the .tri file but i have NO experience with it... :?

cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-02 13:36:34

the naming system won't affect anything, just names. AFAIK the maximal # is 250 or 255.
This is false, you can use 4 digits numbers.

Duplicate name is not porblem. Max. division number is 255.

What about duplicate camp IDs? When you open a saved game with Tacedit you get feedback about HUNDERDS of duplicate Camp IDs!!!
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Post by derStef » 2008-08-05 06:06:20

i added some german brigardes and some red ones.
it seems the both sides don't really want to cross the boarders betweeen West and East germany... NO its a linking prob, the links are ok.
i think we need a dedicated .tri file here..

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Post by ccc » 2008-08-05 08:38:22

post your 2d map screenshot, mark the target objectives of both sides and list their campID numbers. send me the tri file. i may tweak one for you.

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-05 18:35:26

ccc wrote:post your 2d map screenshot, mark the target objectives of both sides and list their campID numbers. send me the tri file. i may tweak one for you.

A 1000 thanks to you, ccc! will do it ASAP!!!! big thanks again!

cheers
Stef

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-06 13:11:21

hello ccc:
i made a list of the objects for the .tri

i hope it is also ok in that form:


Wpact should capture:
Obj name & ID
IN WEST GERMANY:

Berlin 4760
Potsdam 4790
Hannover 4795
Braunschweig 4840
Gottingen 5117
Kassel 5187
Paderborn 5057
Hannover Radar Station 342
Lubeck 4418
Kiel 4334
Hamburg 4484
Bremen 4620
Bremerhaven 4490
Bielefeld 4939
Giessen Radar Station 422
Frankfurt Am Main Depot 425
Frankfurt Am Main 5640
Frankfurt Am Main Junction 56
Schweinfurt 5671
Wurzburg 5751
Bayreuth 5708
Nurnberg 5856
Ingolstadt 6098
Landshut 6191
Heilbronn 5967

IN NETHERLANDS:
Groningen 1800
Enschede 1928
Maastricht 2058

IN FRANCE:
Strasbourg 2735
Mulhouse 3136

IN ITALY:
Trieste 7483
Monfalcone 7399
Udine 7304
Treviso 7474
Padova 7600
Verona 7589

NATO should just be on Defense in the beginning of the war.



i also corrected the boarders between West and East Germany. the western part of Berlin should be blue.

ccc, Big Thanks again!!!


cheers
Stef

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Post by ccc » 2008-08-06 14:41:23

Derstef,

your list seems too long.

for a simple test campaign, i suggest you pick fewer - better less than 10 obj to win/lose. the distance from FLOT to you win/lose obj should be reduced - around 50nm for test purpose.. just don't get too far!

don't add many attack/striker squadrons in test camapign! just let ground war running.

this pic shows korea tiger spirit campaign. main attack routes are marked in yellow.. as you can see, the routes are limited to 3-5 lines. your to-win obj should be on these routes.. don't pick a obj on branch of roads.

please post a similar 2d map screenshot like this.. Image

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-06 17:36:17

Thanks ccc for your help and your hints AND patience, but you know i'm still a rookie.

i'll sort out the objects and post them then as you showed above!

thanx again

cheers
Stef

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-08 09:16:08

hello ccc:

here are two shots from tacedit, sorry i had BIG problems with taking a screenshot in RV, sorry.

RED are the major attack lines (more improtant)
GREEN are the secondary attack lines ("less" important)

Image
Image


would be very nice from you, ccc, if you could tweak me that .tri!!!!

cheers

Stef

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Post by ccc » 2008-08-08 14:27:53

hmm.. i tweaked a very simple TRI here.. modders feel free to make comments..it's a simplified Save1.tri of deafult korea Iron fortress campaign. i let it run at 255 max tempo, just define the win/lose/draw conditions.

Code: Select all

// Base event file for Europe mod test!!
//
// :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;
//
// #TOTAL_EVENTS is a required entry, and
// should be # of events we have triggers for
// and code fore 
// KCK WARNING: KEEP THIS UPDATED!
//
#TOTAL_EVENTS 22
#FLOT_SORTDIRECTION 1
#FLOT_DRAWDISTANCE 300
//
// :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;
// 
// #SET_EVENT will set the activated flag for any
// events we want to be initially activate
// ie: Seoul already should be marked as
// captured in the Pusan parameter scenario
//
// This marks the BLUE as initially on the defensive
#SET_EVENT 10
#SET_EVENT 11

// This sets the initial tempo
#SET_TEMPO 255
#ENDINIT
//
// :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;
// 
// Now come the individual triggers
// 
// 
// Event #14
// Bay guys win
// Basically, did Seoul and Pusan fall
// 
#IF_CONTROLLED 6 A 266 424 284 370  
#PLAY_MOVIE 113
#DO_EVENT 14
#END_GAME 14
#ENDIF
// 
// Event #15
// Stalemate
// 
#IF_BORDOM_HOURS 120
#PLAY_MOVIE 114
#DO_EVENT 15
#END_GAME 15
#ENDIF
// 
// Event #16
// Timeout
// 
#IF_CAMPAIGN_DAY G 30
#PLAY_MOVIE 115
#DO_EVENT 16
#END_GAME 16
#ENDIF
// 
// Event #17
// We win - hu-rah!
// If Allies recapture Seoul or survive to Day 7, 0000 hrs
//
#IF_CONTROLLED 2 A 266 424 284 370 4760
#PLAY_MOVIE 116
#DO_EVENT 17
#ELSE
#IF_CAMPAIGN_DAY G 14 
#PLAY_MOVIE 116
#DO_EVENT 17
#END_GAME 17
#ENDIF
// End
#ENDSCRIPT

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-08 19:58:31

ccc, i tried your second .tri tweak out.
No difference in red groundmoving visible.....
i don't know but it seems not to work....
btw i'm editing the save0.cam so i renamed it to save0.tri...


thanks though for your help!


cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-08 20:06:06

derstef wrote:ccc, i tried your second .tri tweak out.
No difference in red groundmoving visible.....
i don't know but it seems not to work....
btw i'm editing the save0.cam so i renamed it to save0.tri...


thanks though for your help!


cheers
Stef
Because try file doesn't have any effect on ground targets priorities as I know. In Tacedit you can see a priority number for each object. This has affect on also PAK priorites and objectives of ground units.
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Post by ccc » 2008-08-09 01:57:11

molni could be right.
better check your obj priority and PAK.. also make sure ground units can move to those obj ( do some test in TE ).

btw i heard Murad and his Agean campaign made good progress - ground units can move to capture all obj.. AFAIW the main routes are quite simple and no bridges at all.

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-09 08:50:34

ok, i'll obj priority. uhm sorry no experience with PAK....
well i already tried the routes out! they work good....
thanks for your tips

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Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-11 20:30:53

Use Google Earth to check the direction of runways until I make the location map of these.

Soviet Air Force in Hungary 1987-1989

Kunmadaras, loc.: '47 ''23 N '20 ''47 E

- 1 squadron Su-24MR, 13 AC (recon)
- 1 regiment Su-17M4, ~ 20-22 AC


Debrecen, loc.: '47 ''29 N '21 ''36 E

- 1 squadron (regiment?) Su-24 until 1988, replaced with MiG-27


Tököl, loc.: '47 ''20 N '18 ''58 E

- 1 regiment MiG-29, ~ 20 AC

Regiment relocated in 1989 to Sármellék,



Sármellék, loc.: '46 ''41 N '17 ''09 E

- 1 regiment MiG-23M from 1982 to 1988



Kiskunlacháza, loc.: '47 ''10 N '19 ''04 E

- 1 regiment MIG-29, ~ 20 AC



Kalocsa, loc.: '46 ''33 N '18 ''56 E

- 1 transport helicopter regiment with Mi-17 / Mi-6



Hungarian Air Force


Taszár, loc.: '46 ''23 N '17 ''55 E

- 2 (3?) sqadron MiG-21bis
- 1 squadron Su-22 (export variant of Su-17)



Pápa, loc.: '47 ''21 N '17 ''30 E

- 1 squadron MiG-23MF
- 1 squadron MiG-21bis



Kecskemét, loc.: '46 ''55 N '19 ''45 E

- 2 (3?) squadron MiG-21MF



Szentkirályszabadja, loc.: '47 ''04 N '17 ''58 E

- 1 mixed helo regiment with Mi-8/17 and Mi-24
- 1 air tranport squadron, 6 An-24/26


There are some other smaller air bases but they were only resere or were abandoned. I will create a map soon.

I have also the location of air defense units but this is not as simply. In peacetime they had another location that could be in war time. These locations were TOP SECRET and mostly forgotten after collapsing of Warsaw Treaty.
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derStef
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Gaming Interests: Falcon 4.0
Editing Interests: Terrains
Location: Austria

Post by derStef » 2008-08-12 09:04:24

Thx, molly!
i'll check them out!


BTW i got some reds moving to blue cities, BUT very slow and just a few units do it.... (edited the obj priority)


cheers
Stef

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molnibalage
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Posts: 344
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Gaming Interests: Falcon 4.0
Editing Interests: Modeling
Location: Hungary

Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-12 10:23:23

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... xv&thumb=5

Check the blue circles on the map. airbase locations.
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