- mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Europe theater

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-18 17:54:33

uhmm Molni, most Airbases don't exist in the current europetheater...
please add it to the buglist and we can hope that SM will add them in v.0.7...

thanks for the infos anyway!

cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-18 19:46:49

I know. Delete every other except Ferihegy! This can be replaced with Mirim AB modell.
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Post by derStef » 2008-08-19 10:08:39

molni, i don't add objects to the theater!
i'm just tweaking the save0.cam!
you know, adding objects is not so easy. i mean the isues with textures and leveling problems, you know.

what we can do is collecting the "missing" objects and SnakeMan hopefully will add them on the next release.
we really need here people form different counties to "sort out" the existing objects and a list of the important additional objects which should be added by SM for example the hungarian Airbases and many more.. also ccc had this in mind. great idea.
---------

i added more ground units (brigardes/battalions, nearly the whole westgerman army), but now the whole thing got pretty instable. strange CTD during missions and while opening weaponspage in UI... hmmm
too many units??


cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-19 21:13:03

Under FF3 I could add new airbase with Tacedit. I could define a new name and squadrons could fly mission from the new base.
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Post by derStef » 2008-08-20 11:06:04

molnibalage wrote:Under FF3 I could add new airbase with Tacedit. I could define a new name and squadrons could fly mission from the new base.
yes but then is the base not leveled and not the right airbase tile under it....

i can add objects, but i get these probs, that i mentioned before...

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-24 07:26:27

I work on something that you will love!
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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-24 08:58:54

http://web.t-online.hu/varhegyiw/1989.kmz

I translate the most important things that count for Falcon. You can find also some italian and west german ADS units.
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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-24 10:04:20

http://www.mediafire.com/?nfn0xydlyxl

Only the fixed SAMs, airbases, AC regiments and squadrons are on the map. I will try to find the fixed radars an positon of EW radars sites.


In the picture you can see also the mobile SAM locations. (Strange that Taszár is completly undefended).

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Structure of soviet SAM system. All soviet used AB were protected by one SA-3 (Sz-125 Nyeva / Pecsora) battery.

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Structure of hungarian SAM system.

Image


Győr légvédelmi rakéta ezred had 4 SA-6 batteries.

Nagykanizsai légvédelmi rakéta had 4 SA-6 batteries.

Keszthely légvédelmi rakéta ezredet had 6 SA-4 batteries.

Kalocsa légvédelmi rakéta ezred had 3 SA-6 batteries.


ezred = regiment
dandár = brigade


In the 1989 OOB document the AD units of USA are listed. We should distribute around their bases.
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Post by derStef » 2008-08-24 19:15:20

:shock:
THX for the great info, molni!

small problem: my "F4 computer" has no internet, i have internet on another place....

big thanks again!

cheers
Stef

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CZ part

Post by Luk » 2008-08-25 14:34:04

Hi guys. I still work on my part too. But I make it in Falcon4 coordinates. I place everything in proper location (based on L2 mesh). I make CATE bitmap (for tiles/leveling) and want to prepare config file too. I have choosed airbase subtypes (used "Airbase Background Tiling and Leveling with CATE" page) for particular bases. I will show it soon.
Airbases/airstrips + AC 1989 OOB are done, now working on SA2/3/5/6 and S300 PMU sites.
Is there some document for an other type of objectives then airbases? I started to create such a document for myself 1,5 year ago, but it was for F4AF and I did not finish it yet. I feel some kind of pah here when mention F4AF, so I ask for RV/OF objectives list. :)
Luk

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Post by derStef » 2008-08-27 10:26:54

hey Luk, sounds very good what you are doing here!
maybe you could insert us all the additional Airbases and AB tiling and leveling. i have no exp about these things... would be cool if we can count on you.

keep on doing!

cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-27 12:25:01

Guys! How does it sounds that we collect all intel and resources and Snakeman make a new campaign?

Snakeman? :)
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Post by Snake Man » 2008-08-27 14:19:26

Yes sounds good to me, the more specific data about which squadron to what airbase and what batallion to what coordinates... the better.
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Post by derStef » 2008-08-27 17:39:22

YES, thats the best for sure! he is the master. :D
i just thought SM doesn't want anything to do with our illegal/unofficial project....

but in that case, please SM!!!!
we'll collect the stuff and give it then to you.
shouldn't be a problem to remove some objects and add some new improtant ones like Airbases, Armybases, HQs, Radarstations, my home and so on, right? i hope so!

cheers guys, especially Snake Man! :)

Regards
Stef

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Post by Snake Man » 2008-08-27 18:49:10

I said it before, all work must be documented so the campaign can then be created with TCL scripts or there is not going to be any campaign made.

And now we're doing it, you guys gather the data and I'll create the campaign file.

About adding or removing airbases, please forward your requests to airbase master RedDog who is expert in this field. I have full confidence in his ability to put together airbase lists for all of our theaters and I havent seen anything so far that would suggest that Europe's airbases arent somehow to the usual standards.
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Post by molnibalage » 2008-08-27 20:03:12

OK we have to make a VERY detailed doc to SM. This won't be a short project.

As I see the doc. should contain the followings:

- A list about airbases are missing and a list about have to be deleted. (we should add the direction and number of runways).

- Inventory of Air Forces. --> What we want model from that.

- Location of fixed radar station positions.

- Size of armies (soviet and the other eastern block countries) to make a estimate what we want to model. --> After that we can make sturcture of ground troops. X Division with Y brigade with Z battalion. --> Next step, starting position of ground troops and their orders and objectives.

- Location and type of SAM sites.

- Reinforcements? Hard question.

And the main thing. The scale that we want modell. We can't model in 1:1 scale. This is sure.
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Post by derStef » 2008-09-01 14:10:27

Yes, Molni, you are completely right with that what you said.

sure and sad that we can't model it in 1:1 scale, but how should we decide, what should be in and what not. i mean in the case of squadrons or battalions and so on...


cheers
Stef

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Post by derStef » 2008-09-03 08:03:51

Ok lads, i begann to check objectives of Austria, Switzerland and West Germany. also working on a OOB for these countries...
is there somebody out who can help us with France, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Finland, UK, and again West germany?
and we need also help for the Baltic states, Belarus, Jugoslavia & so on..


derStef: Austria, Switzerland, parts of west Germany
Molni: Hungary
Luk:Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany
+ CCCP forces inside above countries



please help us by collecting infos and checking objectives...
thanks for your help!

cheers
Stef
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Post by molnibalage » 2008-09-03 13:05:16

Stef, I can provide info about only Hungary. As I can remember Luk know much about Czechslovakia and Poland.

Other hard problem the size the forces of Sovietunion in these counntry. I can add info / estimate. In first turn we have to know a sum number of Red Army forces in this country. If we know that in HUN were X man wity Y vehicle we can make an estimate for others. Won't be 100%-ly accurate but is much more than nothing.
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Post by Luk » 2008-09-03 19:30:00

hi stef, molni is right.
Luk:
1, Czechoslovakia
2, Poland
3, East Germany
+
CCCP forces inside above countries
I can share 3, and, 2, with somebody who wish to help us.
But in general I have ACs + bases info for all, + SAMs+ CCCP squads(all)/
(ground forces-CZ sure, EG and Poland hope)
So spare your powers on remaining countries.
Luk

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Post by derStef » 2008-09-05 18:42:55

Sounds good Luk!!!

no stress, we have time! 8-)


cheers
Stef

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-09-06 07:18:44

Yes, we have plenty of time. Until FF 5.0 won't be released we can't start making this.
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Post by derStef » 2008-09-06 08:41:34

molnibalage wrote:Yes, we have plenty of time. Until FF 5.0 won't be released we can't start making this.
yes, sad but true...

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Post by Snake Man » 2008-09-06 15:32:31

Well I'm not happy about waiting for something to be released, without any relation to RV dev team; why would I wait for something which in worst case scenario might be even cancelled before its out? We are not going to wait anything to be released, we edit for what we have right now and thats the latest version released.
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Post by molnibalage » 2008-09-06 22:04:17

FF5 will be a new and much more accurate DB than any Falcon version ever had. We have to bulid up new DB from that one.

1. We need the REAL OOB for AC and also ground and SAM units.

2. We have to choose a modelling scale forAC and also gronud units.

3. Considering the modelling scale, real OOB and size of the forces we have to document VERY accurate and specific objectives for EVERY units.

4. Making a summary doc about that I have mentioned in 3.

5. Bulinding the new campaign.

6. Testing.

7. Fixes.



ATM we are standing at the 1. point... I will be happy if we can release a new campaign 1 year later from this post.
----

EDIT -->
why would I wait for something which in worst case scenario might be even cancelled before its out?
FF 5.0 will not be cancelled. We are almost in the finish after ~ 1,5 year of developing.

Some words about waiting. As I see when the summary doccument will be completed there is a chance that FF 5.0 will be released.
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Post by derStef » 2008-09-07 12:29:16

....i have to agree with Molni, we should wait for the brandnew Database of FF5.. believe us... :wink:


cheers
Stef

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Post by Luk » 2008-09-09 13:24:15

derStef: Austria, Switzerland, parts of west Germany
Molni: Hungary, Tscech Rep, anything else?
Luk:Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany
good, its clear now :)
small note - Tscech Rep - it is Czech republic in German language ..ok?
former Czechoslovakia divided peacefully in 1993 - Czech republic and Slovakia
So my task - Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany
or
Czech republic, Slovakia, Poland, East Germany

BTW: some news about "objectives document"?
I prepare some special objectives besides basic obj.
For example nuke-depots, ammo dumps and so on
It would be helpull if I have objective list + how they influences campaign
I know somebody tried to check relations among
objectives and fuel supply in the past (for all F4 versions). I welcome any help.

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Post by molnibalage » 2008-09-09 16:20:20

1. We shouldn't add too much objectives that don't have effect on anything.

2. Have to be some army base, these can be starting positons for many untis and also replacements. Qty. of replacement is also a question.

3. SUPPLY. This is VERY important but almost a big black hole to me. We have to find someone who knows much more detailed as me.

But before we start anything we have to know the size of USSR forces. My father told me something about a "White book" document. This were released in every year by the intelligence of the NATO.
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Post by toonces » 2008-10-03 03:54:33

Hi Derstef and Molnibalage.

I'd like to help with this some theater in some way, besides just flying around looking for bugs.

I've been reading a book called "The Third World War" by Hackett et al. I took a few scans from the book that show dispositions and the attack plans of the WP.

I know you guys are gung ho about finding out exact historical dispositions for everything, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a hypothetical conflict, so some leeway in how you all put everything together should be allowed, and taken.

At any rate, there are some other sources out there for force dispositions and levels; for example, I have a boardgame called "NATO: The Next War in Europe" that lays out the NATO and WP forces at division level. This, combined with Hackett's book, should be a good starting point, don't you think?

Let me know what, if anything, I can do...

See ya,
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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by derStef » 2008-10-28 23:03:29

Thank you very much toonces!

collect everything that you can get and colllect it. AFTER FF5 release, OUR time will come.

to ALL: everyone who wants to help is welcome.
we need every data/information, that we can get, especially about the Soviet stuff. (cold war OOBs, maps,...)

thanks to ALL for your help!

cheers
Stef

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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by molnibalage » 2009-02-11 08:28:38

http://orbat.com/site/history/historica ... wpact.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/519141/Warsaw ... -June-1989

Warsaw pact OOBs. There are some inaccuracy where is listed stuff in Hungary so I assume there can be more. Better than nothing.
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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by toonces » 2009-02-11 17:45:57

Hey Molni,
I got a few boardgames in the mail last month that have some spectacular OOB info in them for Europe- both WP and NATO. When we decide to get working on this theater again, I'll post the info up on mediafile.

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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by derStef » 2009-02-11 20:02:28

Wonderful Molni! Cheers!

toonces wrote:Hey Molni,
I got a few boardgames in the mail last month that have some spectacular OOB info in them for Europe- both WP and NATO. When we decide to get working on this theater again, I'll post the info up on mediafile.
EXCELLENT !!![Mr. Burns]

cheers for that mate!

hopefully we can start it after Taiwan. :mrgreen:

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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by ranger822 » 2009-02-22 18:13:52

Nice to see some interest here. I think some serious work can really begin when FF5 is released.

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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by derStef » 2009-02-23 17:57:07

ranger822 wrote:Nice to see some interest here. I think some serious work can really begin when FF5 is released.

you are hunting around in the right threat, Ranger. Stay here!

really good to have you here, i command you to stay........PLEASE! :) :wink:

....

as you see we already started a bit with collecting some OOB stuff. as this topic says, we are looking for somekind of mid/end eighties scenario al a Red Storm Rising... or something in that style..
but we are also interested for other eras or scenarios, but our first idea was this. what do you think, you know Monly and me, we really like that era for campaigns and so on... i think also others could find interest on it. :) and as you know best, we really have some nice stuff already in the DB for such a scenario. also the time for doubledeltas may come. :mrgreen:

but before we can edit it we really should ask Snake for another Terrain/Objects overhaul in form of a new installer, same as i've planned for Taiwan atm..

AND it seems that Falcon cannot handle more than ~13 000 objects (groundobjects, not units!!!) +/- 1000 i would say.. (i tested around some time).
so we really have to sort out "unimportant" objects to get under the "objects limit" and also we have to add "important" missing objects like many Airbases/Airports/Strips/RadarSites/Ports/Depots/Armybases.... you know what i mean.


as we said, lets finish our current stuff and then switch over to this one...

great!



regards
Stef


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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by Cally » 2009-03-01 03:01:55

Hi guys--thanks for this fine work--I'm very excited about this effort and hope to contribute!

Be patient with a newbie (though not new to game development) and allow my 2 cents:

a) Find a good boardgame/computer game OOB and use that as a template (ditto Toonces): it will enhance consistency greatly and speed the process along. Why reinvent the wheel? I'd be happy to help compile a full central europe OOB from my stash: my vote is for Norm Kroger's/OpartIII's Red Lightning/Red Thunder (central europe frontlines, 1988). It's got a precise OOB down to the composition of each unit (every tank, sam, etc.), aircraft, helos, reinforcements, the whole deal. (Existing Falcon battalion composition is pretty off: too much AA, missing vehicles types, etc.--and of course the AC need to be adjusted).

b) Although it is tempting, I'd urge strongly AGAINST trying to start with a comprehensive whole-europe campaign. It is highly unlikely Falcon was made to deal with such a massive campaign as seems to be contemplated (well, judging from the map boundaries I'm seeing: no offense Sweden, UK mainland, etc.). My hunch is that even a central-europe campaign will have to be judiciously pruned for practicality. Perhaps a good goal would be to capture the essence of the conflict with as much authenticity as the game engine allows.

Basically let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good. Even a scaled down area will be boiling with lots more units than are in existing Korean or Balkans campaigns, and the full map would be out of control with units & objectives. I also gather we won't want to get near representing every actual AC in the theater (the Red Lightning OOB yields ~6,000 aircraft excluding support).

Suggestions anyway, but I'm here to help however I can,
Cal
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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by Cally » 2009-03-01 04:02:01

Some examples of the Red Lightning/Thunder (1988) database:

--Pact AC types: MiG-29, SU-27, MiG-23 (lots!), MiG-21, MiG-17, MiG-27, Su-24, Su-25, Su-20, Su-17, Su-7
--NATO AC types: F-4 II, F-5, F-15, F-104, Tor ADV, Tor IDS, Lightning, F-16, F-18, F-111, A-6, A-10 II, B-52, B-1B, Alphajet, Mirage 3, Mirage F1, Mirage 5, Mirage 2000, Harrier II, Jaguar
--Pact AC total (excl. support & helos): 3,820
--NATO AC total (excl. support & helos): 3,059

--A "Typical" Soviet Tank battalion (3rd Shock Army: Tank Rgt of a Tank Div, T80/BMP2):
T-80: 32
BMP-2: 13
ZSU-23-4: 1
SA-13: 1
SA-14: 9
2S1 122mm: 8
82mm Vasilyek: 2
BM21 MLRS: 2
Trucks: 8

--Falcon4 T-80 Tank battalion for comparison:
T-80: 30 (not bad actually)
BMP-2: 4
2S6: 4
Trucks: 3

(Other battalions are much farther off--even considering late 80's-vs-early-90's differences, pragmatic 'trimming', etc.).

Scope of theatre:
--Denmark to Austria (partial), Belgium/France (partial) to Poland (partial).
--NATO: 8 Corps + reinforcements (a Corps consisting of maybe 75 battalions)
--Pact: 11 Armies + reinforcements (an Army consisting of maybe 50 battalions)
--very roughly 1500 battalions? (by comparison, the Falcon Korean theatre has maybe 800 battalions?)

If anyone's interested in the full database, I'm open on suggestions where to post it (does someone have a preferred online storage space?).

Cheers,
Cal

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molnibalage
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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by molnibalage » 2009-03-01 08:34:46

I (we) aware of that the worng battalion inventory mix. I have said long long time ago this. Don't forget that we can't simiéate in 1:1 scale the size of forces. This also should be true for gorund units. So 9 SA-14 launcher (weapon on vehicles or any way) is a highly unreal stuff. Morover the MANPADS units now much more agressive than in any previous version of Falcon. SA-14/16 attack may times yoi if you fly at 8-10k alt.

Regardless that Sweden, Finald, Norway and England not in map the map is very usable. IRL only F-111 and other support AC were based in Engald. Enoguh to simulate something.
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Cally
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Re: - mid eighties (1984-1989) campaign editing/creation -

Post by Cally » 2009-03-01 17:31:47

molnibalage wrote:I (we) aware of that the worng battalion inventory mix. I have said long long time ago this. Don't forget that we can't simiéate in 1:1 scale the size of forces. This also should be true for gorund units. So 9 SA-14 launcher (weapon on vehicles or any way) is a highly unreal stuff. Morover the MANPADS units now much more agressive than in any previous version of Falcon. SA-14/16 attack may times yoi if you fly at 8-10k alt.
Ah, an excellent point I wasn't aware of. So that suggests that we need to:
a) Start with a "realistic" OOB list.
b) Create an equivalency table that translates how many real-world units make sense in F4.
** somone experienced like you; I don't know Falcon well enough to guess these values.
c) Create an adjusted OOB that provides good play balance for Falcon.
Regardless that Sweden, Finald, Norway and England not in map the map is very usable. IRL only F-111 and other support AC were based in Engald. Enoguh to simulate something.
Yes, I think we're agreeing: we don't need the whole map. Let's strip out some objectives and units and simulate a more restricted region. We can keep a master database of the whole map somewhere. Then someone can make a Northern campaign, an Eastern campaign, etc. later. Start with the basic central Europe area.

I volunteer to start us out by posting a spreadsheet of "realistic" battalion compositions. I will then need someone to suggest translation values. How many real-world MBT = 1 Falcon MBT? How many ZSU-23-4? SA-14?, etc.

Start us out Molnibalage: 1 Falcon SA-14 = how many real-world SA-14's?

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