Parent links in Europe theater

[Tobias Adam]

Hi!

Is there anybody working on the missing objective parent links in the europe theater?

If not, I'll start working on them, starting in germany, and then heading north, south, east, west... I think those might cause a CTD, also, many of them are wrong.

If nobody else already started with that, I'd like to do so starting with the TE_NEW.TAC.

Best regards, Tobias

[Snake Man]

Nobody is working on them, you are free to tweak them if you want.

Grab the latest file from the v0.6 release when you start to edit.

Do NOT use te_new.tac as that is just the TE template, use save0.cam for any objective editing.

If you try to test the results ingame, there is nuisance bug/thing in Europe .cam files that if edited and saved, they cause CTD. But they work if you run the objectives/units in one go/save. Difficult to explain I know.

[Luk]

I play with them already. But only in limited area at the moment. I wanted to use default PMC objectives + linking as the base-layout. Then rework it in my area of interest. But I am focused at terrain right now. So I dont want to brake you, but in case of double/triple work, some
work could be lost. Particular objectives can be exported/imported in my opinion, neither the linking.

AF campaign engine can handle the whole european area. The mysterious buffer overrun error was not caused by objectives/CAM, but rather by terrain files.
Default PMC L2 file is 27MB in large, my L2 is about 37MB.

BTW: I can modify my CAM file as I want, then test it in F4AF without problems.

Luk

[derStef]

I think the best would be to wait for Luk's final terrain work, and then we go forward, with object placement and linking. I'll be also up...
especially many importan Airbases and Armybases are missing... would be great if we can organize a list of the most importan missing stuff.

regards
Stef

[Tobias Adam]

Well, I could still export the objectives, import them in the te_new.tac and test there, or am I wrong on this point?
I think I read something in the forums here with the campaign like "export, clear everything, import, save & go"... I will try it out.

I will see to get germany alright, maybe denmark too- since I don't have this much time left, this would be a start at least will will take a few weeks, I think.
Object placement will only be possible after the terrain is finished, Luk's work looks very promising. If you start earlier to correct the positions of objectives, you just have double work. My first goal is getting the linking in the right place to get all the unlinked bridges, junctions correctly linked. I mean the parent links, and just in the second step any road links. At the current stage, I will just correct the parent links.

Best regards, Tobias

[Snake Man]

Yes you can export objectives from save0.cam and import them into clean te_new.tac and test there. I did some ground unit movement tests on TE also as its very easy there.

Just let me know if you need any more info etc regarding the objectives or tools etc.

[Luk]

Object placement will only be possible after the terrain is finished..

It is much better to do it, when the terrain is completed. But you can place objectives already now. New terrain will be compatibile
with older one in case of towns, cities, factories etc. It is because it has the same road network.
But let the bridges rather untouched and safe your energy for final terrain. Bridges will need hand fixes (or new script placement). We will also need some new bridges inside the cities and some multi-spanned bridges - closer to ocean the rivers are wider now.

If you start earlier to correct the positions of objectives, you just have double work.

Generally it is true. But not in this case. I did all changes in hand-tiled areas (they will be imported on top of new terrain). So my work will not be lost.

It will be lost just in case, somebody very active will fix some very very large area now....then he will have to fix it again(remember mentioned bridges).

But I wanted to say in the main:
I think linking is not importable/exportable. So you can not combine two *.cam files. You can just extract objectives, not the links.

Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Do you have any timeframe for the release of your terrain together with your objectives?
We can also wait some weeks, that really does not hurt. Two or three months don't do it either.

So one person should rework the parent links, and import the objectives from other editors? Might be a good idea.

Greetings,
Tobi

[Luk]

So one person should rework the parent links, and import the objectives from other editors? Might be a good idea.

Yes, I like the idea.

Do you have any timeframe for the release of your terrain together with your objectives?
We can also wait some weeks, that really does not hurt. Two or three months don't do it either.

Ok, you are getting me under pressure. This is something I wanted to avoid, but this is the life
I want to do all the mentioned things as soon as possible.
But seriously - I count the terrain will be finished in few weeks/months. Imagine, I paint it pixel after pixel...
The problem is, I am not the "master of my time" at all (...before I started to write this post, I have painted East germany forrests ).

In case I will see, my time conditions are really bad - we will find some backup solution.
I can just seamlessly import some finished part of the terrain for example.
Or I can send you my cam file and you can continue (parent links etc.).
I have still most of my *.cam work in the paper. I have just placed some airbases, cities/towns/villages, bridges and few spatial objectives.

But there is another very important task to do already now.
I wanted to open new topic for it later. But it looks, time has come.
We will need to make some "basic objective document".
I mean some intersection/boolean union/least common denominator of all Falcon version objectives.
I guess the objectives list used by SnakeMan's TCL scripts perhaps uses this bunch of objectives. We can se N-S and W-E bridges in all F4 subversions.
I guess mentioned objectives numbers come from pure 1998 F4 database.
We will need - army bases, depots, custom house, ports, nukeplants ...etc. etc.
It must work in all versions, so we will have pretty stable PMC Europe ver. 7 or 8...?

Luk

[Luk]

note - I guess, you can not to import the links.
But I can bee wrong. Perhaps parent links are stored like some constant/id and can be exported to excel. I dont know what happened if the parent objective is not present...?
I am strongly unsure of normal link export/import.
Try it please.

Luk

[Tobias Adam]

I send you a PM with my eMail adress for the cam file.

Don't hurry, I don't have this much time as well. I think I'll rework the links first, and then we can start with adding/ replacing objectives when the terrain is finished.

I did some tiling by myself as well, so I can imagine how you feel Thanks for your great work.

Best regards,
Tobias

[molnibalage]

What are the functions these parents? Can you explain is short somebody?

[Luk]

I send you a PM with my eMail adress for the cam file.

Ok, but I should send also "europe.idx" and "europe.wch" files.
There are placed new names, I have added.
But it is better to send also thr file. It is because I have added some roads in hand-tiled areas.
THR is about 4 MB, it is quite large for email. Packed 615kb...OK.

Luk

[Tobias Adam]

Received it, thank you.

I already started relinking the german border to the original '89 state to represent the right ownership, name and country state (linking to correct parent like Hannover/ Frankfurt etc.).

You should not zoom out- the first thought then is "woah, a nice piece of work left"...

Thank you very much for what you have provided

Best regards, Tobi

[Tobias Adam]

Hi all,

fixed all parent links and about a dozen names in germany (east and west) and denmark. Also, the border between Germany and Austria, Poland and France should be correct now as well as the border in germany.
However, I do not know wether Falcon can display the german "ue" (u with two dots on it). There are two or three names with it- on my PC, Tacedit works fine, but I think about renaming it to "ue" instead of "ü" because not everybody has this code set on his PC- or does it not matter?
However, in a part of the map, there are no "nowhere" objectives anymore

It's kind of a strange feeling. My wife grew up in eastern germany, me in western germany. You really start thinking about german history and the cold war when the journey brings you to both "homes" and the border in between... Imagine facing your brother-in-law in real life combat... Thank god that it never happened.

Besides of that- do you think it is possible to model the wall through germany that represented the iron curtain? Kinda difficult doing that with objectives, but maybe it would be possible with tiles? The border in germany was clearly visible since it was not only a wall, also a "death strip" with mines, watch towers... It is indeed still visible in many areas, more than 20 years after the wall has been gone. There is no wall anymore, but the strip is still there since there have not been any trees or something in that strip.

Luk, I can also send you the unfinished files as a "state-of-work", if you want it.

More to come later.

See ya, Tobi

[Snake Man]

Yes please use "ue" so there is no problems down the road then.

[Luk]

It's kind of a strange feeling. My wife grew up in eastern germany, me in western germany. You really start thinking about german history and the cold war when the journey brings you to both "homes" and the border in between... Imagine facing your brother-in-law in real life combat... Thank god that it never happened.

I also had mixed feelings when I first invented the concept of the Cold War campaign. Czech troops have been identified as the first line victims. Their task was not to survive, but to weaken the US-German allies, and die. When a few more brighter generals (among those comies who survived the political purges after 1968 occupation) asked whether they would at least a small number of units left to defend territory, they were told that it is not necessary - it has after the Russians take care ...
For or against what is there actually to fight? For bondage having at home and against freedom, which they saw on the other side of the border?

Well, after all - despite everything mentioned, Cold War aviation is still my favorite. Irrational love for the mig 21 and 23 gives me the opportunity to go beyond reality. I love the instigators stories about banter around the "high blue wall". Also, I sit in a pub with a former SA3 operator/shooter, sometimes meet mig21 pilot etc... and believe me, they are really enthusiasts in the field. I think they did not differ from those on the other side.

BTW:And how I solved that my schizophrenia?
Campaign would sit until the end of 80's years. It would cover disarmament agreements (probably SALT2), when the climate melted. Full nuclear war is unlikely. But something goes wrong about the Pershing missiles check-ups or their CCCP counterparts. Might be guilty of a Russian general - a notorious alcoholic, or his fellow American patriot with obsessional inclination to protect his body fluids(?). So come to engage a number of hostile nuclear bases. One initiative will be Blue, the second time the Reds. It will be such a superpowers skirmish on foreign bailiwick (with air support of their allies). It would be nice to select the final video from two possible randomly. Player would never know until the end, whether it is on the right side ...
But the story is secondary, mainly to have well running campaign.

Besides of that- do you think it is possible to model the wall through germany that represented the iron curtain? Kinda difficult doing that with objectives, but maybe it would be possible with tiles? The border in germany was clearly visible since it was not only a wall, also a "death strip" with mines, watch towers... It is indeed still visible in many areas, more than 20 years after the wall has been gone. There is no wall anymore, but the strip is still there since there have not been any trees or something in that strip.

I thought about it quite a lot. First, when I did X1 colouring last year.
Here a few pictures from that time:
painted border:

But I did not like such blurred boundaries very much. They are not bad when blended with textures indeed.

There is also a small off-topic bonus for sailors,

and here is also for skiers:


I also thought to make road-featured border. Then to scatter guard towers and customs along this path. The links among those could be modified by hand, so the troops can move quite fast, but the heavy armors not (border guard).
But I do not count those roads now(but we can change it). Rather only the custom objectives to have some places for units to stack.
Here is some picture of current state - it is small portion of map - there is just visible some difference in tiling situated along Czech-Austrian border:
http://www.maxipicture.cz/verejne/10/07 ... P_PART.jpg

Luk, I can also send you the unfinished files as a "state-of-work", if you want it.

Thank you. But not now, when I have time, I will give the signal. Thanks.

Luk

EDIT - note:
the only possible feature type for border are swamp-road and forrest-road. The others road types are not good, because of strong irrigation/fields - it looks very "civilian". The border will be quite wide (2 transition tiles + feature in the middle, means 3 tiles at least). The next problem are rivers. It is quite common for europe, we have natural borders - for example rivers. I did not checked EG/WG border in google maps very carefuly. But in case, there is some complicated situation, we can miss some segment. Anyway - individual approach is unavoidable in case we want road type border....
BTW Former West/East border is a huge and pretty biocoridor now! (The same in case of former and even contemporary Czech military polygons.)

[Tobias Adam]

Impressing... I know the german border, but seeing the whole thing at once is quite impressive... You really can imagine why this has been called the "iron curtain".

It is now a real green belt because it was possible for many animals and plants to have a quite "secure" room for living with no human harming them...

The EG/WG border is often not following rivers or other landscape marks. It even crossed in the middle of some villages. Other villages just disappeared. "Billmuthausen", for example, was completely knocked down because it laid on the exclusion zone. I work as a service engineer for CNC tools and come around a little bit- most of of the old border that I have seen is dividing the fields cross-country. It's just the way how the different provinces go, formed by princes ages ago... You can also see this in google maps.
It is extremely difficult to be exact here.
But very interesting, how they dealth with cities or villages in the middle age- you get this village if you give me these fields...

Anyway, I corrected all objectives now to be correct, so the border should be somehow close to reality now.
Currently, I'm working on Great Britian and I think I'm getting it finished this week. After that, I'll continue on sweden.
I will try to set the parent links in some way to represent industrial and/ or political main areas, however, I do not know exactly about this in other countries than germany.

You've done a great work with that border and the tiling.

See ya,
Tobi