New tiles for ODS

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Sherlock » 2009-02-15 03:50:31

Polak wrote:In my ODS tile project I am at the point that to properly evaluate the tiles I have done so far I really need generic (homogeneous) tiles increased to maximum possible(16?) for each of the nature (sea including) .
I have made already numerous revisions and versions to the tiles I made originally and at this point, for the sake of saving on time, I would rather try to steer clear of unnecessary experimentation. If that is not possible, kindly please let me know.

On my end the progress is, I think, quite satisfactory and normally I would rather try to proceed without bothering for CATE changes, but having only one ARABLE generic tile I am little stuck and unable to make proper decision how to proceed further.

In my estimate I have made approximately 60-65% of the entire job.
What do you need to proceed further?
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2009-02-15 04:15:29

@ccc
I have updated airbases with new 2nd shot. BTW in that one the theater.map has been made all white. I think that gives more natural ambient daylight.
@sherlock
I would like SnakeMan to help with some CATE changes, but he seems not to be around today.No wonder Valentines... :wink:

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Snake Man » 2009-02-18 22:21:45

Polak wrote:In my ODS tile project I am at the point that to properly evaluate the tiles I have done so far I really need generic (homogeneous) tiles increased to maximum possible(16?) for each of the nature (sea including) .
Well for testing purposes you could do this yourself, but I think in the long run I should do the official texture.bin edits and send you the edited one.

So what are you saying is that you need one tile set (1 to 16 new tiles) for each of the terrain types? Is 16 enough, I mean really enough for the future? We basically would want to have it set for stone now so we don't have to go back to add more. Its possible, but definitely we should get it all done once now.

Let me know precisely what you need for the new tile sets, and I'll ship you get new texture.bin with new tile filenames.
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2009-02-19 12:54:56

Thank you for replaying SM to my request to add tiles.

I can make any amount of the variations of the generic tiles and perhaps it is worth considering if we go even for more than 16 for each type. Somewhere I have read that some more than 24 is required for the perception of repetitiveness to be not. It is hard to say really, but indeed if we are already going for a drastic change and trouble of reediting tile data set .... why then stop at 16 and not go for 32.

For now then I concentrate on what tiles I consider,find and identify as generic and what tiles are the subject of this request for extension:

ocean tiles there are 2 tiles: HCOST00Fand HCOST60F
desert has only 2 tiles HDSRT001 and HDSRT002
then what I dub rocky desert HSWAMA has currently 8 tiles
dry agriculture: HARAB00 only 1
irrigated agriculture: HVEGE11 has currently 9
scrub or nomad pasture: HSAND10F has 1 plus 8 in LSAND40set ..that is total 9
rocks also only 1: HFORR20F
high mountain also only 1: HDMOU10F
woods LWOOD30X 7 tiles
city HCITY20F -1 , HCITYC0 -4, HCITY92F -1, HZCIT80F -1 tiles so total 7? ...maybe here I missing something
snow caps HCAPSFCF -1 tile

To avoid confusion existing sets should stay and only if there are "empty " available numbers all should be "occupied".
EDIT: before new texture.bin is compiled maybe all other modifications should be considered and if agreed - incorporated.

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Sherlock » 2009-02-19 14:01:30

Polak wrote:Thank you for replaying SM to my request to add tiles.

I can make any amount of the variations of the generic tiles and perhaps it is worth considering if we go even for more than 16 for each type. Somewhere I have read that some more than 24 is required for the perception of repetitiveness to be not. It is hard to say really, but indeed if we are already going for a drastic change and trouble of reediting tile data set .... why then stop at 16 and not go for 32.

For now then I concentrate on what tiles I consider,find and identify as generic and what tiles are the subject of this request for extension:

ocean tiles there are 2 tiles: HCOST00Fand HCOST60F
desert has only 2 tiles HDSRT001 and HDSRT002
then what I dub rocky desert HSWAMA has currently 8 tiles
dry agriculture: HARAB00 only 1
irrigated agriculture: HVEGE11 has currently 9
scrub or nomad pasture: HSAND10F has 1 plus 8 in LSAND40set ..that is total 9
rocks also only 1: HFORR20F
high mountain also only 1: HDMOU10F
woods LWOOD30X 7 tiles
city HCITY20F -1 , HCITYC0 -4, HCITY92F -1, HZCIT80F -1 tiles so total 7? ...maybe here I missing something
snow caps HCAPSFCF -1 tile

To avoid confusion existing sets should stay and only if there are "empty " available numbers all should be "occupied".
EDIT: before new texture.bin is compiled maybe all other modifications should be considered and if agreed - incorporated.
In my opinion the worst "offenders" are the arable land tiles (HARAB00), irrigated agriculture (HVEGE11 has currently 9), desert tiles (HDSRT001 and HDSRT002) and mountain tiles (HDMOU10F). I would suggest giving attention to those first (in the order I listed them).
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by RingoSurf » 2009-02-22 09:33:17

compliments and thank you for the job you're doing about tiles ! ... but I think it's as much important to modify save0.cam, save1.cam or save2.cam (adding fighter squadrons)

probably you take this for granted but it would be very interesting flying with typhoon or f16c-52 ccrp in ods theater !

I tried to modify them with tactical engagement : save0.cam -->save0.tac but with no success

ciao
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2009-02-22 13:32:04

thank you for the job you're doing about tiles ! ... but I think it's as much important to modify save0.cam, save1.cam or save2.cam (adding fighter squadrons)
I agree, but unfortunately do not count on me.
No idea about "how to" so perhaps I continue what I am doing and others will help you here.
cheers

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Snake Man » 2009-02-26 15:35:23

Also the fact that campaign editing has nothing to do with New tiles for ODS topic...
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2009-08-01 13:54:24

ocean tiles there are 2 tiles: HCOST00Fand HCOST60F
desert has only 2 tiles HDSRT001 and HDSRT002
then what I dub rocky desert HSWAMA has currently 8 tiles
dry agriculture: HARAB00 only 1
irrigated agriculture: HVEGE11 has currently 9
scrub or nomad pasture: HSAND10F has 1 plus 8 in LSAND40set ..that is total 9
rocks also only 1: HFORR20F
high mountain also only 1: HDMOU10F
woods LWOOD30X 7 tiles
city HCITY20F -1 , HCITYC0 -4, HCITY92F -1, HZCIT80F -1 tiles so total 7? ...maybe here I missing something
snow caps HCAPSFCF -1 tile
I was recently reviewing the status and stage where I left ODS Project and found this note.

I also have made test how the introduction of some variety into tiles changes the perception of the terrain. I have flown over the area with HVEGE11 tiles to find out that 9 is better than 1 :idea: :wink: (1 IMHO is sure unnaceptable unless it is desert or sea). At the time when I broke from the project it seemed to me hopelessly bad - now from the perspective of some time - not that bad and gave me some incentives to continue. I cannot post the photo now, but later I'll try.

The bottom line is that I would REALLY love to introduce more variety to generic type of tiles. Up to 16 or more for each type of the terrain. With some variety added from the tiles with roads and rivers (and coastal) it should look realistically enough. I perhaps could do this too, just need to "refresh" my memory how.

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Snake Man » 2009-08-01 15:40:08

Adding variety tiles is OK. Just let me know when you want to start making them and we can setup the filenames then.
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Sherlock » 2009-08-01 18:06:16

I'm still around as well and willing to lend my expertise to your efforts also Polak. Cheers!
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2009-08-01 18:23:48

Great that all are around and willing to help and interesting to continue projects.
While "away" from time to time I was coming back to repaint airbases and as a result of that most of them are repainted. That was pretty big chunk of work. I have noticed some trouble with tile configuration of Airbase50 . Can someone take a look?
I am practically ready to continue. That said I am in process of slow move so life's disrupted. And some other things too.
:(

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Sherlock » 2009-08-01 20:25:20

Polak wrote:Great that all are around and willing to help and interesting to continue projects.
While "away" from time to time I was coming back to repaint airbases and as a result of that most of them are repainted. That was pretty big chunk of work. I have noticed some trouble with tile configuration of Airbase50 . Can someone take a look?
I am practically ready to continue. That said I am in process of slow move so life's disrupted. And some other things too.
:(
Can you be more specific as to the problem with the "tile configuration of Airbase50"? Do you mean object ID #50? (What is the name of the airbase?).
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2009-08-04 20:21:02

This is my latest area of "struggle" - arable tiles. They are really in initial stage and in fact just 1st attempt for now. Since arable is "manmade" tiling is more difficult than purely natural like rocks , mountains or desert.
Image
They are 9 so there is some variety already. However, as you perhaps can see the tiles in upper row of this patch betray already repetitious pattern. The antidote for that would be to not to allow any color variation, but this may not be looking the way I would like - in some resemblance to how that area looks in real life.
Image

Again I really would like to increase variety of those type of tiles to max. By adding some elements more "spelled out" than green mess it could be looking more realistically.

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Tom » 2009-08-05 00:13:15

Hello, I just want to say I am really happy that you came back. Your work is simply outstanding IMO.

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by ccc » 2009-08-05 02:19:36

wellcome back.. with nice tiles!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

some thougths about ODS tiles..

when i checking Google Earth, i found this big 128x128 theater covering a variety of terrain types..apart from unique desert/ dry land/ desert city and airbases/ rocky hills, there're areas of korean terrain type! So, a serious re-tiling (wiht CATE) needs a new texture set- maybe a mixed korea and new desert tiles, or a brand new set.

BTW once the new tile set done, the neighboring theaters( Iran 128x/Afgfanstan 128x/israel 64x ) may use it too..
in Iran 128 , the iranian Gulf area is more sandy and rocky, but the Caspian area is more greenish.
in Afghanstan 128, the center mass of Afghanstan is rocky, but the Russian, Pakistan, and India are greenish.

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Snake Man » 2009-08-05 09:04:12

ccc wrote:So, a serious re-tiling (wiht CATE) needs a new texture set- maybe a mixed korea and new desert tiles, or a brand new set.
Maybe you're wording your intentions bit unclear, but if I just read that 'as is', I can say to you; never going to happen, forget about it.

ODS has great texture.zip right now and I'm happy with it. New tiles can be added, but to totally rework it, forget 'bout it.
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by ccc » 2009-08-05 11:25:37

Snake Man wrote:ODS has great texture.zip right now and I'm happy with it. New tiles can be added, but to totally rework it, forget 'bout it.
well...then the way to the use new, extra tiles is hand-tiling, for specific areas, right? ( of course, new(upgrade) tiles overwriting old ones can be used directly).

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2009-08-05 11:34:50

ODS has great texture.zip right now and I'm happy with it. New tiles can be added, but to totally rework it, forget 'bout it.
I concur that adding completely new type of terrain to ODS surely would be too complex and time consuming undertaking. I am though very curious and eager to produce more tiles to add to the variety.

I should perhaps make graphic example, but try to verbalize it instead. Say ...new added arable tiles would carry in addition to green background cluster of a village here and there, or some industrial element. If enough variety is in the terrain CATE hopefully would distribute it at random pattern adding that element of "unpredictable" grouping of various elements in the terrain, which is kind of natural and realistic thing.

The same could be made to river and road and coast tiles (which should also be adding to variety). However, here is the problem, which I have already experienced while doing roads and rivers for desert type :idea: . Placing any element on each curve of the road makes it being repeated unnaturally forever :( . This needs to be avoided at any cost so that is why I repeat so many times my calls for increase of number of generic tiles in the same nature (type of the terrain). My photo example of Arable terrain above is good start because the terrain has already 9 tiles (but more is better here).

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Gusser » 2010-02-20 15:12:16

So!any news about this? these tiles are awesome :D hope that it´s not put on ice as the ODS theater have greate potential :mrgreen:

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2010-02-22 17:00:00

Thank you for your interest.
Despite radio silence in the eter the work slowly continues on this and other desert theatres. :wink:

Image

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Gusser » 2010-02-22 18:18:56

Looking good! and thank´s for you´r effort...much appreciated :mrgreen:

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Sherlock » 2010-02-22 20:46:53

[quote="Polak"]Thank you for your interest.
Despite radio silence in the eter the work slowly continues on this and other desert theatres. :wink:

Polak,
if there is anything I can do to help out (not graphic artist "heavy" skill - related) please let me know. I have very little "artist" skill in me so I am not able to help much in that area. However, as far as texture sets, resizing tiles, running RUN-TILES, repalleting tiles, editing the texture.bin I can handle those kinds of things. I'm familiar with how falcon uses the tiles and how they are named/sized, etc.
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2010-02-22 23:25:55

Thank you Sherlock very much for offer to help.

At this stage the work is progressing in making various tiles sets, which will eventually and hopefully serve as a library from which one can draw resources for not only desert, but other theaters as well. I know, that always is that problem of proper and specific transitions, but I hope that this can be resolved as well.

As you perhaps know there are two theaters which are quite advanced at this point and made by others: Aegan and Angolan. Those two are based on 512x512 photoreal textures just like mine. When they are ready for publishing , I will try to encourage authors of those to share them freely with the public not only for use but further development by interchanging and exchanging various natures and generic terrain types of the choice. Same will apply to desert terrain I am so labourously and slowly making since last year. As for transitions, it is my plan, there would be set of masks published which could make production of tiles less time consuming and not requiring any artistic skills. It is the shame only that I have gotten to this business so late and that it takes so slowly to make any significant progress.

EDIT part of the post removed.

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Snake Man » 2010-07-29 03:07:09

I'm now preparing ODS v0.7.1 to be compatible with FF 5.5.1 and was wondering which of your tile-sets are ready to be used now?
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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Polak » 2010-07-29 12:28:10

I believe that ODS will be automatically in works as soon as currently working on projects for FF5 are finished. I have working folder for ODS and as as soon as I catch some time I will start assigning and renaming tilesets. By now I have quite good understanding about hierarchy of the tiles in this Theater and hopefully we should make a fast progress. There is one "unfinished" accross the board item for all tiles I have done so far and that is night tiles. I need to focus perhaps on this and firm my understanding how this works in terrain using DDS format. I am afraid that I do understand that well in PCX (F4AF), but not in DDS type of terrain .

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Re: New tiles for ODS

Post by Snake Man » 2010-07-29 12:36:46

Well ODS v0.7.1 is going to be out very soon, miles ahead of any ITO2 projects etc.

I was just thinking that since you've been working for ODS tiles for so long, there would be something ready now even if you joined FF team to work on ITO2. So are there for example any airbase sets ready?

Oh and you should do the tiles in PCX, this way they are compatible on all F4 versions, not just OF/FF.
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