Internal Beta 4

[Snake Man]

I've put out internal Beta 4 package which uses F4Patch. Its still the lame unzip to f4dir install package.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

Another update for internal Beta 4, it is now neatly packaged to InstallShield single executable, just like Balkans Beta 6c.

If you want to test this, email nospam

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

The internal Beta 4 update:

- InstallShield installation works
- F4Patch v3.2 for theater selection.
- Work for tiling continues
- JSTARS maps are done
- Many Airbases leveled & background tiled

Campaign work (object placement) is at halt because of the larger theater issue. Problem is TE's work ok but Campaign wont schedule flights, its kind of hard to test it when there is nobody flying

I'm sure there will be solution for large-map campaign in near future.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

Vietnam Theater BETA 4 internal update

- More stuff added to the campaign like Factories, Powerplants, Army Depots etc.
- Terrain more Human tiled, much more. http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/tiling.html
- Work continues for 128 campaign flight scheduling.

Oh and one side note which some of you maybe didnt know yet is WHEN we get the 128 theater fully working, you guys MUST use eRAZOR for the Vietnam. The 128 theater will not work with 108i2 anymore, as there are eRAZOR code fixes for the larger theater support.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[brewskie]

Well, the vietnam theater should be for everybody, right? So you should have 2 versions, one that runs on Erazors and one that works for RPG/ibeta/voodoo users like me.

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by brewskie:
Well, the vietnam theater should be for everybody, right? So you should have 2 versions, one that runs on Erazors and one that works for RPG/ibeta/voodoo users like me.

Oh yeah, eRAZOR dont work too hot on Voodoo is that right? Hmm how long is people going to use voodoo cards btw? heh not long, thats what I think

I thought of making two versions but keeping BOTH versions up to date is almost impossible, most problems come with the campaign. In campaign we cannot export/import ground units/squadrons/navy, so while we easily can export static 3d objects between two theater-sizes there is no way we can have the units transferred. I cant imagine doing TWO (unit) campaigns manually... thats he bad news.

However we can have at least 108i2 compatible theater version by the "last beta out before 128 theater", that we can supply with fully tiled terrain + campaign objects + maps but ground units would be little "thin" on the theater.

But dont be alarmed, we still have few issues regarding the 128 theater, of course I dont hope that we fail... but who knows if we need to stick with the lame 64 sized theater nothing is written into stone yet...

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

How is the internal Beta 4 campaign btw?

I havent had a chance to fly it yet, but few times I've watched the action view at 4x and still it *seems* that Hanoi is pretty much deadlies place on Vietnam Theater

What I want to know, is do I need to remove some KS-19 and SA-2 units, or is the defence level acceptable (it cant be too low heh).

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[ccc]

do some fly with beta4 pre-8.

what a thrill to fight against 3 F4E in mig19!! those phantoms are toooo powerful!

here's my thoughts:
1. installshield works. better change those advertising pics from Balkans
2. i note you incorporate Vnam loading pie
that pie shows when join in-flight a/c, but the balkans pie will show if you join while on the ground/taxi or runway. two pies used?
3. you need a debriefing screen... got artist yet? it should be very easy, just grab some nice shots, then it done in minutes. Dunno if Olric is ready to help an upgraded colorful loading pie.
4.dont remove any AAA. actually we want more
5.flights planned adequately, the more you add ground unit, the more BAI/CAS there, i note mig19 are assigned to strike US gound troops..ya Ripper's new FAB250 shape is correct..and dangerous to ground units
6.USN flights works. i can join them now. so, i think if i edit their pylon/wpns, CTD could happen due to some file conflicts...in this case, we need ADD more a/c, use EA6B for A6. Julian and Ripper can add/duplicate current models and insert them thru f4p, dunno if larger, more complex files like a/c could be done in the same way. if yes, then we need A6(from EA6B), F4B/C/D/E(from same F4), and Mig17(from Mig19), the basic characters.
7.need more vnam era wpn > need help from RPG
8.tune down the effectiveness of AAMs, or create new ones. they are too lethal.
9.a/c Gun/cannon, the fire rate should be adjusted. or change its ammo store/pk/damage point accordingly. say, mig19 with 150 rounds but lower firing rate, probably lesser round fired in each burst, 3-5?, so 15 egg in m61 comsumption rate is too high.
10.FM need tweak > RPG

alright, most are RPG-related. theater itself is almost perfect..if more units there.

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by ccc:
1. installshield works. better change those advertising pics from Balkans

Those should be fixed when we find some decent Vietnam era pictures to go along.

quote:
2. i note you incorporate Vnam loading pie
that pie shows when join in-flight a/c, but the balkans pie will show if you join while on the ground/taxi or runway. two pies used?

No single pie, the one you made. I havent seen balkans pie anywhere in vietnam install, takeoff from ground or join flight in the air == vietnam pie.

quote:
3. you need a debriefing screen... got artist yet?

Sure, its those vietnam era pictures that I'm missing. If you got anything nice, please send them to me or paste links here.

quote:
4.dont remove any AAA. actually we want more

Really? I get myself shot down immediately when flying around Hanoi

quote:
5.flights planned adequately, the more you add ground unit, the more BAI/CAS there,

I've been holding back adding the ground forces for now. When the eRAZOR exe is at the stage that we can get 128-campaign flights scheduled, all objects get exported to the larger map... but not ground units

quote:
6.USN flights works. i can join them now. so, i think if i edit their pylon/wpns, CTD could happen due to some file conflicts...

I thought so too, its good to hear everything works now.

quote:
in this case, we need ADD more a/c, use EA6B for A6. Julian and Ripper can add/duplicate current models and insert them thru f4p, dunno if larger

Isnt this the RPG thing to handle, add new units to the databases?

quote:
7.need more vnam era wpn > need help from RPG
8.tune down the effectiveness of AAMs, or create new ones. they are too lethal.

Did you have more list for the 'Nam weapons?

Anyways, I really need to contact the RPG now about vietnam additions to the falcon datas. using existing 3d models for A-6 and Mig-17 for example sounds pretty good to me, lateron we can just swap the 3d model and voila we have more realistic flights than ever.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[ccc]

quote:Originally posted by Snake_Man:
Did you have more list for the 'Nam weapons?
Anyways, I really need to contact the RPG now about vietnam additions to the falcon datas. using existing 3d models for A-6 and Mig-17 for example sounds pretty good to me, lateron we can just swap the 3d model and voila we have more realistic flights than ever.
PMC TFW
Snake Man

1.about AAA: you should JINK more Violently
Say, what we need is more smoky puffs in the air, so dont remove AAAs. maybe we can reduce their effectiveness/pk/damage point thru f4p. BTW, we need larger tracers to fill the gap between KS12/19 and small arms.
I used to join defensive AAA excerise, the medium-caliber AAA, like 40-60mm, got both larger tracers and explosion smokes.

2.Vnam weapon/munition list, i think JimG and Hamm could add more.
i want to add:
Aim 9B/C/D
Aim-4
SUU-5? gunpod
Aim 7B?
Mk58? 250kg iron bomb(use on A-1)
fuel tank for phantom 370 gal?

since add/duplicate current model/swapping thru f4p is available, hope Ripper and RPG members wont mind adding them. Many items are slightly different in shape or perfromance, but will definitely enhance realism. As for Gunpod, its doable, the only problems is adjusting gun nozzle positions.?

say, establishing a list is imminent, or RPG wont know what we need. where's info consultant?

3. thanx to Basil, mig17 skin ready. got it?
BTW Angel converted a MSFS A6, nice toy.

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by ccc:
say, establishing a list is imminent, or RPG wont know what we need. where's info consultant?

I dont know, maybe we can find some contact info emails from RPG readme or something. As the egroups sucked into yahoogroups now, I cant even post message to f4terrain to Rhino. So... time to dig up some emails.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[brewskie]

Sounds like we need some help again. Email me Rhino's home addy.

CCC, the aim-4 was garbage and barely used.
Many kills were with the F4's main gun. Some Aim-7E,and aim-9B/E/J's. 20mm Gun pod was Suu-16.

Mig 17 didn't use any missles.
Mig 19 guns, may have fired aa-2's.
Mig 21 mostly guns guns but some had the aim-9b copy which was the atoll aa-2. The Russians copied it because some of the aim-9's fell into N.vietnam.
F-105F Iron Hand flights used Shrike AGM-45a anti-radiation missles.
LBG's were mk84's converted to gbu 10's.




[This message has been edited by brewskie (edited January 28, 2001).]

[Snake Man]

Today I was testing the campaign again, now with the great eRAZOR v1.0799 x16/x32 time acceleration. I stumbled into US M-16 Infantry unit, after fourship of "Mig-17's" attacked it.
Well those guys started to move, they took heading of something like 315 I think and they went on and on. You really had that feeling like tiny guy on the ground when you were on orbit camera with he M-16 troops. Above in the sky "Mig-17's" engaged F-4E Phantoms, boy that was fun to watch from the ground level view which really shows another perspective to the A2A combat, I highly recommend just starting to follow some ground units if you want to explore the theater world.

Then all of the sudden I got this feeling... I felt helpless, I felt that I could not defend myself, I felt that any second now, there is batch of Cluster Bombs heading my way from the air above and the last thing I hear in my life is the pop-sound of the cluster cannisters popping open and dispensing the little bomblets that will get me experiencing horrible death on the jungle of N. Vietnam...

Uh! I was so lucky to find that ESC key and I got back safely to the Falcon 4.0 de-briefing screen! What a relief!

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

When I was playing around with the campaign more tonight and I noticed some "crap" on the small campaign map. I though is this some eRAZOR bug or something.

Then I took another look. Hmm... what the... hey, thats no bug, thats no crap! its the ground units moving and that "paints" the campaign ownership map colors there !

Hehe yeah, North Vietnamese T-55's chased the U.S. Infantry M-16 troops down to the south and took one city from them

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[ccc]

So, land war is ready?
ATO schedule any CAS/BAI missions to counter NV offensive?
ground unit AI can decide their target city?
Honei? Saigon?

[colonel tomb]

According to aircombat accounts found in Squadron/Signal Publications books, instances of MiG-17's engaging US aircraft with air-to-air missiles occurred. Also, the Atoll missile is said to have been copied from an American supplied Sidewinder missile fired by a Taiwanese jet that missed and fell into PRC territory before being sent to the USSR.

[brewskie]

Well Col. Tomb should know
He's right snakeman,about the origin and the Mig 17, but the vast majority of accounts are with guns only. I was reading from official usaf docs which stated only Mig 21's used atolls, but some PHD wrote a book from info obtained from North vietnams airforce, confirming atoll use by Mig 17. Add to this mix, early in the war there were Mig 15's also, but i wouldn't add them. Good work tomb, and extra pair of eyes always welcome.

[172ndhamm]

seems to me that although the various U.S. intelligence arms believed that the Migs 15/17/19 weren't armed with missiles, I've read in more than one 1st person account by some of the 'nam era aviators instances where MIG19's fired atolls.
-yeah, I just checked, and found an account by Randy Cunningham where a Mig 17 fired an atoll on him during the battle where he and Willie Driscoll got their second kill.

As for the Atoll, the Warsaw pact had two examples to copy the sidewinder from: the first flew to China when a Taiwonese F-86 scored a hit a Chinese Mig and it didn't explode; the second apparently entered East Germany sticking out the back window of an operative's VW van! (big cajhones)

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 30, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 30, 2001).]

[172ndhamm]

Some more weapons info:
SA-3 first known to be deployed n North Vietnam January 23rd, 1972.
SA-7 Grail (like a Stinger) first confirmed use was in April of 72, when PRV forces crossed the DMZ en masse.
-----
March 66, first AGM-45a's introduced. 2.5 mile range. They were quickly replaced by the AGM-45B. It had an 8 mile range
July 66, the CBU-24, CBU-29, CBU-49 became available in-theatre.
March 67, AGM-62 Walleye I glildebomb
May 68, first AGM-78's Standard ARM's introduced. they were better then the agm-45 shrikes, I think they had a bigger warhead?
Sept. 68 first Rockeye cluster bombs introduced.
Jan 72, Walleye II glidebomb used.
July 72 the EA6B was allowed to enter combat over North Vietnam.

----
Snake_man, I don't know if this will help, if you can alter the statistical attack tables, but for the US forces I found the following figures:
Aim 4 Falcon accounted for 5 kills
Aim 9 Sidewinder got 80 kills. That's 58% of all A-A kills, and 40% of missile launches. The ratio is 1 kill for every 5.5 shots.
Aim 7 sparrow got 52 kills; that 38% of kills and 54% of all launches. Shoot, thats 1 kill for every eleven shots.
Gun kills accounted for 52 shootdowns;
and last, there was a Navy A-4 guy coming home from a flack-suppression mission when he bagged himself a MIG17/15 by squirting a whole pod of zuni rockets on him...

----------------------

"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."




[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited January 30, 2001).]

[ccc]

Hamm, excellent info.
i think RPG could use this pk values to tweak Vnam wpns!

[brewskie]

My money is on Duke.
Thanks hamm.

[brewskie]

According to fas.org the standard arm had a range of 15 miles.

[172ndhamm]

Bodybag just pointed out to me my list doesn't include the bullpup(suks) or the paveway series of gbu's. that's because my list is primarily from a USN source.

----------
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"

[colonel tomb]

Heard somewhere that the AGM-78 was adapted from a US NAVY cruiser SAM, forget which. Some trivia: A couple of MiG-21's fell to B-52 tailguns over Hanoi, the only MiGs to given to non-officers. Also read that an A-1 bagged a MiG-17 in self-defence. Some of those rusty MiG-17&19 monument mounts in Squadron Signal's "Vietnamese People's Air Force" photos have Atolls slung underneath.
Same book mentions MiG-15's only used as trainers.

[colonel tomb]

A surprise:
Dug up some old microfilm newspaper accounts of
(drum roll)

"MiG-23's" used in Vietnam against Americans.

I couldn't believe it either. Will scan it tonight and mail it tomorrow.

Maybe they mean the aircraft known as the MiG-21 and a half(no, not the bis, but what eventually became the Chinese F-8).
Otherwise the VPAF reportedly didn't have the MiG-23 until the mid to late 1970's. Possibly it was tested before contract and delivery.
Also arrival of Il-28's into Vietnam conflict and Soviet arms buildup there detailed.
Stay tuned.

[This message has been edited by colonel tomb (edited January 31, 2001).]

[172ndhamm]

wow. I'm told that the MIG23 was in-service as early as 1968, but that'd be interesting.

As for the A-1 story, CDR. John B. Nichols in his book, On Yankee Station, (ISBN
0-553-27216-0) and Jeffrey L. Levinson in
Alpha Strike Vietnam, (ISBN 0-671-68916-9) both recounted the story of how two A-1's from the U.S.S.INTREPID downed a couple of MIG17's. Seems the '17 pilots were fixated on attempting to bag a couple of (other) A-1's, and didn't see the other two Skyraiders who dove down on them from altitude.

-------

"Remember, the enemies gate is "down"

[colonel tomb]

Sorry for the big attachments but I'm very new to scanning. The airwar parts of the newspaper have been underlined. The connection is a bit slow so who knows when all will arrive.

[172ndhamm]

Snake_Man,
I've been contacting different Vietnam Vets who've posted photos on their webpages, looking for permission to use their personal photos for the menu and pie screens. It appears we don't need copyright approval for public domain stuff, (like DOD and other USG sources) so here's one from the 355th TFW... I'll be posting some more, shortly.

These two were taken by Terry H. He has given us permission to use them provided he gets credit, copyright 1999 http://irbflying.com


------------
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down "



[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited February 01, 2001).]

[Snake Man]

Vietnam Theater Beta 4 internal update

- China is now fully tiled.
- More tiling to Cambodia/Thailand
- Pleiku airbase terrain leveled/background tiled.

I'm now pretty sure we can provide 100% tiled terrain to the Beta 4 release (meaning we dont have to wait for it unreasonably long).

Sorry, no news for the 128-Campaign yet as I'm totally out of ideas of how to make it work.

I was planning on some limited beta testing for you guys, but its kind of confusing as its the vietnam theater... but then again Not... It requires the eRAZOR v1.0799 to work. If anyone is intrested to fly 128 x 128 segment theater please email me at nospam

Anyways, I'll post more update info later.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[ccc]

more ground units in next internal beta?
or should we generate a unit list before adding these units?

[172ndhamm]

quote:Sure, its those vietnam era pictures that I'm missing. If you got anything nice, please send them to me or paste
links here.

I just realized I have some pics I took myself, feel free to use those if they're suitable. I'll email 'em over.


-------------

"Remember, the enemy's gate is down"

[This message has been edited by 172ndhamm (edited February 01, 2001).]

[Snake Man]

Thanks Hamm, pretty nice photos you sent me.

Update to internal beta 4, tiling is now almost complete. you can view the latest progress from
http://www.pmctactical.org/f4/tiling.html

Only two assignments left to fill and then its up to me to stitch the different assigments together.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

Vietnam Theater Beta 4 Internal update

Last night I had nice ground unit "movement" campaign running for Day 33 without any CTD's which is very good news.

As you know the terrain is 100% human tiled for roads/rivers/citys/forest&farm transition tiles. Still having some minor bug to bother me on LODFixer autotile option.

Currently I'm working on the flags for Vietnam, after they are working I'm going to package the theater and release Beta 4.
If anyone has good knowledge of country Flags configuration, some help would be appreciated.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[ccc]

Last night I had nice ground unit "movement" campaign running for Day 33 without any CTD's which is very good news.

>> WOW! so the ground units follow any routes or attack spearhead? gound unit movement logic included? ground unit composition done?

If anyone has good knowledge of country Flags configuration, some help would be appreciated.

country flags? maybe you can check some website about flags?

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by ccc:
WOW! so the ground units follow any routes or attack spearhead? gound unit movement logic included? ground unit composition done?

Uhm, ground units (T-55's M48's Infantry both AK-47 and M16) move just nicely, they engage each other and capture objects.

quote:country flags? maybe you can check some website about flags?

I have the flag images, I've already done pretty much all the conversion to falcon .idx .irc .rsc files, but they just dont work. the flags in TE teams and Campaign Intel screens are blank

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Snake Man]

Yeah well so much for the flag issue, I finally figured it out. Flags are now working OK.

Now its just fixing up the cosmetic side of the "package" and yes... then the public release

What would you guys suggest about "team" side of the Vietnam war. Thailand - US - South Vietnam is basically the same team, but where goes China, Laos and Cambodia? (sorry for my historic ignorance heh). I remember seeing that China was totally off limits for US aircrafts, but did the chinese help NVnam out in any way?
If you can list me some specifics that would help, the team status list is here what we can use:

None
Allied
Friendly
Neutral
Hostile
At War

Thanks for any details you can share.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[Widowmaker]

I guess they were hostile
(in a Falcon4 way).

[brewskie]

This is where you start getting into covert ops.
Covert ops like Igloo white, Tailwind,the CIA operations in Loas had very little official info published, but a huge counter insurgence war was fought there. I'll ask Gilman
I would have
Loas= US friendly, but communist guerrilla's invaded and much of the fighting took place in the Plain of Jars. Also a major part of the Ho Chi Minh trail was in Loas.

Cambodia=US enemy, most of the Ho Chi Minh trail went through Cambodia, terrible oppresive Khmer government, basically Cambodia was a refuge and sanctuary for the NVA.

China=neutral. Yes they supplied NVietnam the arms, and told Ho Chi Minh they would back him up but who knows for sure, its debateble. Many believe China, at that time, would not enter the war because they had problems of there own. Plus China has fought against the NVA in the past over northern border territory. I'd keep them neutral, i personally don't like bombing China anyway, unless it's absolutely necessary.

[This message has been edited by brewskie (edited February 12, 2001).]

[Snake Man]

quote:Originally posted by brewskie:
I would have
Loas= US friendly

Okay well Friendly I think is when you can access the nations airfields, so do we want to be able to fly sorties from Laos bases?

quote:Cambodia=US enemy

Well lets put it at hostile status, hostile is one step away from At War which means the campaign engine frags sorties against that nation.

quote:China=neutral

Yep, the big sleeping dragon in the far north. Why dont we let her sleep.

PMC TFW
Snake Man

[brewskie]

Hostile status for loas too. However there were large attempts made by the CIA, to win the support of the laotian people. There were many dirt airstrips used by the loas gov. backed by the Cia, and Loas even had some radar installations that were used for bombing North Vietnam. When the US ended it's involvement, Loas was basically taken over by the NVA who siezed the Gold deposits at Muang Peu, in Houaphan Province. This region is extremely rich in gold, and all the richest gold deposits have been mined by Soviet and Vietnamese teams. The gold was cast into ingots and carried out of Laos to Hanoi.



[This message has been edited by brewskie (edited February 13, 2001).]