Understanding PAKs

Terrain / Theater editing

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Understanding PAKs

Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-24 12:43:51

Hey guys,

I have been reading through the tutorials and trying to understand PAKs. The information is pretty good, and I think I somewhat understand what to do, however, I do need to clarify a few things.

If I understand correctly, assigning major, or capital cities to 81-100 will become a PAK area. So when editing, or building a campaign, how do we edit this, to become an important PAK, meaning that the ATO runned by the HQ will use this as a high priority target area to task sorties?

I understand that setting the value of the PRI for each objectives affects the priority of how the ATO generates sorties against this objective? So what is the risks of setting all enemy objectives to 100?

For example, lets say we are building an ODS campaign. So we want to liberate Kuwait. So would we set all objectives in Kuwait at 100, and a few key places in Iraq?

Maybe I don't understand how these work? I always thought setting yoour PAK to a higher objetive will concentrate all missions based on the mission types?

Jody

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-10-24 14:30:19

I'm no expert but I played a bit with this stuff with Israeli campaign I improved...

Why not giving all objectives priority set to 100?

I think this way you'll get the ATO to make bad decisions when assigining strike missions against features... probably will get a lot of cities targeted as there are way more city/village/town features than anything else... AFAIK.

Besides, the PAK objectives should in some way match the trigger files... so each side will have some kind of a "road map" along the high priority features, in order to win the campaign... at least that's how I built it when I modified old Israeli campaign PAK map and features priorities...
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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-24 15:42:36

I-hawk,

Very good point..

The trouble I have is understanding the difference between PAKs and mission priorities? Are they the same?

For example, when I go into the PAK, and move the WAR PRODUCTION slider to max. Does this mean that the campaign engine is now changing the PRI value of all Factories to 100?

I am trying to understand how I should edit my campaign so it runs the way I want. Right now, everything is set, but it only tasks to one area, and has tons and tons of CAS missions, even though I set the mission types to OCA strikes etc. For example, even though I max out OCA missions, there are non generated. Is this because maybe the PRI value of all enemy airbases are not set high enough?

Jody

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Post by Sherlock » 2007-10-24 15:54:27

Depending on the hour value set in the config file, remember that it normally takes 2 hours for changes you make on the ATO sliders to be reflected in the ATO.
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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-24 16:03:33

Sherlock,

Yeah I made sure it was going long after the changes should have taken place. For example, to learn I am messing around with the "Undersiege" campaign in Balkans.

With out making any PAK changes, I notice the ATO stops generating mission half way through day 2. The completely stop. As a matter of fact, red air still attacks italy, and blue air does nothign to defend. When I go into TAC EDIT and select view Priorities, only TIRANE city is marked with a purple target. My guess is the ATO stops, cause it thinks its objectives are met?? Maybe in that area sinc there is a large saturation of CAS mission, Blue defeats the red attackers, and feels TIRANE is safe, thus no need to go offensive. And since there are no Blue PAKs, it does not feel a need to defend them??

these are just guesses, I am just trying to fully understand before I make a campaign.

Jody

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-10-24 16:56:23

marvin157th wrote:I-hawk,

Very good point..

The trouble I have is understanding the difference between PAKs and mission priorities? Are they the same?

For example, when I go into the PAK, and move the WAR PRODUCTION slider to max. Does this mean that the campaign engine is now changing the PRI value of all Factories to 100?

I am trying to understand how I should edit my campaign so it runs the way I want. Right now, everything is set, but it only tasks to one area, and has tons and tons of CAS missions, even though I set the mission types to OCA strikes etc. For example, even though I max out OCA missions, there are non generated. Is this because maybe the PRI value of all enemy airbases are not set high enough?

Jody
oh... there are many more variables that affect ATO... the first one I can think of is the mission.dat file under the campaign folder... I'm not sure which version you are using, but I think better make sure mission.dat in the theater you build match up with the Korean file...

This file has major effects on ATO mission generation... including the flags on the right side that can also mean a lot for ATO...

I think the PAK map settings are more like a "general direction" for the campaign engine... including ground troops movement, while ATO per a squadron is more specific function which gets into account many more data details before deciding which missions to generate...

Well... I'm bubbling a lot :lol: first thing, better make sure your mission.dat has correct data...
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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-24 19:53:04

I-Hawk,

No this is great stuff. For the mission.dat mine is default from the theater so that is not the problem. As a matter of fact I am messing with the "Underseige" Balkans campaign. I am almost certain PAKs are my issue, cause even if I manually increase the PAK in the campaign UI screen they also default back to 0. This is most likely due to the fact that only TIRAN has a priority target circle around it when viewed in TACEDIT.

So my final question and understanding is this. When you go to major cities and change their PRI value to 81-100 does this now register them in the PAKs menu list in the Campaign UI screen?

Jody

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-10-24 22:21:06

marvin157th wrote: So my final question and understanding is this. When you go to major cities and change their PRI value to 81-100 does this now register them in the PAKs menu list in the Campaign UI screen?

Jody
Yes...

Even if PAK map itself doesn't showing it (BMP file should be modified I think), it's working and you should be able to pick the new areas you set...
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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-24 23:12:58

I-hawk,

THanks for the help. When I get home tonight, I will mess around with that.

Jody

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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-25 02:04:57

I-Hawk,

Ok I played around with the PRI values, and what a difference. I can now build a PAK map, and really see the ATO come to life.

Now there is one thing I don't understand. Do we need to set PAKs for all major cities in our theater? For example, I am building a historical campaign to like OP Allied Force. So I set the PAKs in Serbia and Kosovo to 81 for testing. Now all those areas are a PAK, thus the ATO is now tasking OCAs and however I set the missions in the PAK UI etc.

Do I need to set PAKs in Italy as well? I guess what I am asking is to ensure resupply with Airlifts, tankers, Awacs etc, do I need to bother setting PAKs in Italy?

Jody

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Post by Snake Man » 2007-10-25 02:16:57

To be perfectly honest, I have not read this whole topic to the letter so maybe I'm stating the obvious or our tutorial really is missing some information that has now came up in this topic.

So could someone summarize this topic and/vs PMC Editing Wiki PAK Tutorial, please. Thanks.
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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-25 14:26:47

SM,

I read through that tutorial first. And the problem I found is like many tutorials on this site, they are written for the more experience person working with this stuff, and more like a refresher for them.

For me, although I understood them, there still are many questions which I am experimenting with and trying to clarify, like behaviours of the campaign engine wrt PAKs.

Jody

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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-26 01:35:30

SM,

Maybe you can figure this out. What I am trying to do for now, is build a proper working PAK map for the Balkans. For example, in Korea when you edit the ATO in the campaign UI, you can go to the PAK map and basically select on any province (lack of better word) in Korea and increase/decrease the scale for priority.. In the Balkans theater the PAK maps seem to be all messed up. So for testing purposes I am trying to make a new PAK map so I can select any are similar to KOrea.

So after reading your tutorial and if I understand correctly, I need to select the priority cities, and put their PRI value to 81-100. So for this test, I put them all at 81.

So I did that, select priority view, and it would appear as though all the capital cities etc are all setup.

So I select insert>build pak map. Nothing happens except for my map.bmp turns off and PAK map view appears. The screen is all white? So I select save pak map. Although the UI pak map is better, it is not working perfectly, as some areas are fine and some are messed up and cover a larger or wrong area. So I am guessing the build pak map is not processing correctly.

My tact edit version is the latest (i believe) 2.46

Jody

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Post by Sherlock » 2007-10-26 02:47:18

marvin157th wrote: ***SNIP***
So I select insert>build pak map. Nothing happens except for my map.bmp turns off and PAK map view appears. The screen is all white? So I select save pak map. Although the UI pak map is better, it is not working perfectly, as some areas are fine and some are messed up and cover a larger or wrong area. So I am guessing the build pak map is not processing correctly.
If you are doing larger than a 64x64 pak map, then TacEdit won't generate a PAK map (or at least no one has been able to get it to work that I know of including me).

Follow the instructions laid down by Twister here: http://www.freefalcon.com/forum/view_to ... orum_id=12
Ok .. After some days in the US . I got back home .. and i started a new campaign since terrain was done ,. after using the new Pathmaker i created the last thr map for tacedit . then i placed links in the theater according to roads , I also added a Parent ID for every objective i linked . named most bridges and other things ..

Since i was tired of following the PMC tutorial .. i did it my way . and create the campaign as i thought it was the correct way .. what i got? .. this
Image

Yes , i was actually able to see the pakmap .. the trick i think was that every object must have a parentID and also every objective must be linked .,so that's the trick i think!! .. hope it help some of you theater makers..this was a pain in the neck .. probably somebody already figure this out , so .,maybe this post is just trash .. then again , it may not be ..

Twister
This might help also to give you some early background:
viewtopic.php?t=19217

viewtopic.php?t=18939

The important thing to know is that all objectives need to be linked one to another to another to a top-level parent (Look at the SP4.2 Korea campaign as a good example). This will fully define your pak areas and allow the map to be generated.

marvin157th wrote:My tact edit version is the latest (i believe) 2.46
Latest TacEdit version is 2.48 (get it here at PMC).
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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-26 04:51:16

Sherlock,

Thanks... Gonna mess around and see what I can do.

It would appear as though all my PARENT links are pretty good. I mean there is a few buildings linked to others that should maybe be linked to a nearer set, but otherwise looks alright. I managed to get at least 60% of my PAKs set in Balkans, but not them all.

Still working on it.
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Post by Snake Man » 2007-10-26 06:06:37

many tutorials on this site, they are written for the more experience person working with this stuff, and more like a refresher for them.
I'm sad to hear that since I write the tutorials to a person who is actually "hands on" using the util, so I lay down the step by step instructions. At least that has always been my goal.

Sure, I wont tell you how to unpack RAR packet or how to use photoshop to open a BMP file as that is someting which is beyond the scope of Falcon 4 editing.

Could you point out a specific parts of the text which is in your view aimed to the more experienced person, perhaps we find a beginner solution for the same paragraphs and I'll happily update the wiki?
reading your tutorial and if I understand correctly, I need to select the priority cities, and put their PRI value to 81-100. So for this test, I put them all at 81.
Hmm okay I need to check the wording of it, but the priorities are like top three girls in your life... wife is the number one, lover is the number two, mom is number three (hehe if you allow that lame demonstration), what I mean is capitol city of the enemy territories is with Priority 100 (OR just the highest available number below 100), then the city with lowest amount of "political" importance is 81 (OR the lowest available number above 81) that it just is counted for one of the PAK areas. Yes you CAN use same values for the priority cities, but I have always tried to use 81, 82, 83... up until 100. If I have more than 19 PAK cities, then I have to use proper values in the middle (between 81 and 100) regarding how important the city is "politically" or so. Hmm maybe I cant explain it correctly.

To my understanding you DONT have to use 81 or 100 for the lowest and highest values. You can use like between 87 and 94 etc.

I highly recommend against using two cities with 100, however I have no facts to back up this "recommendation" except just a .. umm common sense or something.
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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-26 16:22:06

SM,

Well once I figure all this out I will revisit the turorial and read it again. Maybe they are specific and I am just clueless and not fully understanding. Maybe I just don't fully understand the PAKs which is my goal here in this thread.

What I think I discovered last night is, the ATO will only generate to areas selected to 81 or higher. Meaning whatever areas I designate to be selected in the PAK map. When I edited an existing PAK map and just named the SERB area as 81 or higher, there were very few missions, and of all things no support flights AWACS, TANKERS etc. Once I selected a friendly zone near the Serbs and gave it 81 so it could show on the PAK map the ATO started to generate support flights to this region.

This what I am trying to clearly understand. I realize that if I select cities at high values, the ATO will cocentrate in that area. But it appears to me if I have cities with lower the 81 the ATO will almost not work in that area. Makes sens, yes, but what about friendly fly zones for support flights? So it seems if I give an area at least 81 to mark it on the map so to speak, they use that as a friendly orbiting region??

Jody

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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-27 00:00:14

Hey guys,

Ok, I spent hours, and hours going through every single object, re-assigning PARENT IDs to each so they are grouped in somewhat proper areas in relation to the primary objects. I also manually went through almost every object making sure they are setup properly per owner and controller. Now the PAKs are working MUCH better in the campaign UI and ATOs, however it is not perfect.

I think my last proplem is related to the occupation maping. Even though I ask it to build the occpuation map it does not seem to build the map and colours as they are defined in the objects in the MAP view screen of TAC EDIT. When I go to the campaign>map> (the screen where you paint the occupations) it still seems to reflect the default, thus the reason for things not looking right in the campaign UI PAK screen.

So my question is, does the paint screen reflect the objects in the MAP view, or the other way around? I figure the paint screen was a way to quickly devide the areas, then go into the objects and touch them up. But they don't seem to effect each other? You would think once I setup all my objects, and select build occpuation map the new map in the paint view would reflect the way I defined each object in the map view. Cause this is certainly the last part that is screwing up my PAK selection in the campaign UI.

Jody

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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-27 00:08:42

Sherlock wrote: The important thing to know is that all objectives need to be linked one to another to another to a top-level parent (Look at the SP4.2 Korea campaign as a good example). This will fully define your pak areas and allow the map to be generated.
Sherlock,

I am working on this now but I want to make sure I understand this correctly.

So you are saying make sure all objects are linked in their groups to a primary target (parent ID 0, and has the purple target ring over it). Is this correct? So all objects are grouped to this one top parent.

I did all this, and it is starting to look pretty good. I don't understand the links? When I select links, I see black lines running from object to object etc, but I don't understand how to edit them.

So are you talking about the parent links (purple lines) or the links (black lines).

Jody

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Post by marvin157th » 2007-10-27 00:34:15

K,

I think I figured out the occpuational map thing. I have a version of TAC EDIT here at work to goof around on, and I think I need to reset the paint map then click rebuild occupation map, and it seems to be working. I will try that when I get home.

Yep, that did the trick! I still cannot see the PAK map in TACEDIT, but atleast I can manipulate all the PAKs in the campaign UI and everything looks good.

Jody

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Post by marvin157th » 2007-11-08 23:18:36

And the war continues...

Ok after learning so much about TACEDIT I wiped out the Balkans theaters and started from scratch. Every single object is linked through proper parents. I set the all up with a priority of 81-100 not exceeding 41 units. My occupational map looks good. When I run build PAK map I still do not see anything?? Either way I save it. Bare in mind this is not a 128 theater, so I should be seeing it.

Now when I start the theater, it is almost as if, it goes to the default PAKs until my settings kick in, which seem to be about 2 hours when the next OCA starts. And for some reason the Serb area seems to be all setup nicely the way my PAKs are set. That area runs very smooth, and looks like a nice controlled Air Strike battle.

However, none of my friendly area PAKs register at all? And this is the reason why I think I lose my BARCAPs, and TANKER tracks are a little unpredictable. I am guessing cause all the other paks are set to minimum.

Lastly, even though I set the priorities of how I want to run the ATO, it does not follow my settings 100%? It sort of follows it, but its like the campaign engine has a mind of its own, ignoring my settings, and doing what it thinks is better.

Any ideas? Why am I still not seeing the PAK map in TACEDIT? I am guessing this is the source of my problem.

Jody

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Post by Closter » 2007-11-19 12:23:10

Ok, Marvin, I read through it.

My understanding is that you change the PAK Map cities and then Rebuild the Map (and save it), but don't rebuild the graphics associated. It is important that you create some graphics apart from the pak.map.

I am writting down the way I build a pak map from scratch, I expect you to make some use of it.

-Firstable, per the tutorial:

-Launch Tacedit.
-Choose Primary cities, 49 or less.
-Double click over each one. Priority>81 and Priority <100>Reset Parents ----> sec. cities get their Parent Links to prim cities, link in green. PAKs are defined.

-Next build Occupation Map. Select Campaign---->Map ; recommended size is to be written down, Set Map size and OK. Back in Campaign press Apply downright.

-Insert--->Build Occupation Map.

- Insert--->Build PAK Map. You are asked about .THR. (If you wanna see it, you select Map View--->Objectives---->Show Relief Map). Then, the image goes white. I don't see PAKs into TacEdit. But selecting File Save PakMap, .pak is saved.

We have now the pak map, but it is not completely usable in game because some graphics are lacking.

These graphics are PAK_REGION_OVERLAY.tga and PAK_OUTLINE_OVERLAY.tga,

The file .pak is kind of graphic file, but without the colour info. Using Photoshop or anything else, open .pak as raw, giving a size of 512x512 (128 theater) or 256x256 (64 theater), 8 bits depth. It seems as all black. You can apply a filter Find Borders, but it's better first apply Automatic Levels, and then Find Borders. Then Posterize or Umbral (don't know the names in english) so the dark borders are going black and the inning zones turn white. Then you refill the inning zones of the PAKS with magenta, only black (0,0,0) and magenta (0,0,255) are allowed. You save the result as PAK_OUTLINE_OVERLAY.tga. PAK_REGION_OVERLAY.tga could be the same, and it works, but perhaps you could paint the innings in levels of blue. Both files saved as RGB 16 bits tga.

These two files are then to be packed with the perl scripts

Then you must use the proper strategy.scf.

I hope to be of help.
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