RedViper Database for theaters

Terrain / Theater editing

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RedViper Database for theaters

Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-16 04:44:17

RedViper / FreeFalcon database, I have been told it is setup pretty good with loadouts for ODS and Vietnam at least, but I'm not sure as I havent checked myself or got a really confirmed list of aircrafts / units.

So I guess this question goes to anyone who knows somehow; can someone please post the list of the flyable / working aircrafts with historical loadouts for

Operation Desert Storm
- ?

Vietnam
- apart from cargo planes, most ac need minor DB tweak, more or less.

The list will be updated when I get more confirmed information. Also if someone is digging up this data and knows, please list the CT numbers also. Thank you.
Last edited by Snake Man on 2007-04-17 13:37:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ccc » 2007-04-16 06:07:57

i've no RV installed ATM.. IIRC, RV database covers most ODS ac, and almost 85-90% of Vnam ac, tho not all are fully flyable.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-16 06:19:49

S-M what exactly do you need to know? i don't understand the part of "flyable aircrafts"... you mean like "special" theater's types? like for example F-4D for Vietnam? well I'm not sure which ACs i should look for...
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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-16 06:50:22

I recall there was some database where I noticed "F-18A ODS" and I believe it had AIM120's etc removed and obviously it was configured for ODS with such name. For Vietnam I would be looking for example like A-1 Skyraider or F-4E with specific loadout for the NAM era, like added napalm and removed fancy LGBs and stuff.

Thats what I'm looking for.

I dont ask this because I'm lazy, there is F4Browse and RV on my hdd so I could look them up myself, but I would much rather hear it from some RV/database/realism expert than to just go look for mystical aircraft CT's on the database and wondering if they work or not, are they qualified for the historical era or not.
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-16 07:54:41

OK i guess i can do...

EDIT
-----------------

Anyone can direct me to some good reference for Vietnam era? looking especially for munitions carried by ACs. both sides of the conflict. :)
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-16 10:01:31

S-M i just installed ODS 0.6 on RV. i've seen there are 3 theaters... you planing each one or maybe even 2 of them to have a different objects folder? :shock:

Maybe for this kind of theaters... which using same DB but needs special tweaking as AC loadouts... there is room to create ability to include only part of objects files to override the default objects folder... since objects folder is specified in TDF file i assume this isn't possible ATM...but that's of course require code changes. :)

EDIT
------------------

But of course such thing can be easily done with F4Patch... if attached to the installer... that's the better way i guess.
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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-16 10:24:17

No, just one ODS 1991 objects dir, rest just use the default RV objects dir.
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Post by T_Rex » 2007-04-16 12:02:03

Would a text file of almost all the models in the db help?

Or, a list of a/c that we need to check for would be easier. :)
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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-16 12:33:25

Post the text file please and we'll go from there.
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-16 12:54:33

S-M i ran through your list on the other thread about ODS. changed weapons and verified most in munitions screen... now i guess to do the same for Europe according to the list at the same thread... still needs soething more Vietnam though... i'll try to look myself but i guess someone already have more accurate data than what i could find ATM...

One more thing... i saved changes as exported F4Browse files just to keep track of what already changed, and also saved .VCD file. but i noticed it's not enough to keep the data... which file am i missing? must be one or couple more to save such data...
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Post by T_Rex » 2007-04-16 13:39:56

Snake Man wrote:Post the text file please and we'll go from there.
Ok, I can generate one in the next 24 hours or so.
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-16 15:12:21

Can you do that every theaters and every camapign have differenet database? It will be good.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-16 16:18:12

molnibalage wrote:Can you do that every theaters and every camapign have differenet database? It will be good.
That's the idea of this thread i think. :) to a degree of course...
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-16 16:51:52

i_hawk wrote: One more thing... i saved changes as exported F4Browse files just to keep track of what already changed, and also saved .VCD file. but i noticed it's not enough to keep the data... which file am i missing? must be one or couple more to save such data...
OK got answer for this one... it's the WLD file... and if clicking on "recalculate" after updating HPs then also the VCD file is needed. :)
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Post by ccc » 2007-04-17 04:42:50

<ODS>

A-10A
A-4M ( as A-4KU)
A-50 ( as iraqi AWACS)
A-6E
A-7D/E
AH-1
AH-64A
An-12
An-24
AV-8B ( as AV-8A)
B-1B
B-52H
Buccaneer
C-130
C-141
C-5
C-160
C-2
CH-47
E-2C
E-3
E-8
EA-6B
EF-111A
F/A-18C/D
F-111F
F-117A
F-14B/D
F-15C/D
F-16A/C/CG/CJ
F-4E/G
F-5E
IL-28
IL-76/78
Jaguar RAF
KC-10
KC-135
KC-130
Mi-8
mi-24
Mig-17/19
Mig-21MF
mig-23MF/ML
Mig-25
Mig-29A
Mirage F1
Mirage2000C
OH-58
OV-10D
RF-4C
S-3B
Su-7
Su-24
Su-25
Super Etandard
Tornado ADV/IDS
TR-1/-2
Tu-16/H-6
Tu-22 ( as Tu22 blinder)
UH-1N

<Veitnam>

A-1H - ok
A-4B/C/E -ok. A-4 may carry AGM62 I
A-6E ( as A-6A/B) - remove AGM, LGB, can carry AGM62 I/II.
A-7D/E - remove AGM, LGB, remove AIM9M, can add AGM62 I/II.
B-52D -ok
AH-1 - remove hellfire AGM114
C-123 -ok
C-130 -ok
C-141 -ok
CH-47 -ok
E-2C -ok
EA-6B ( as EA-6A or A-6B) - remove AGM88, add AGM45
F-100D -ok
F-102A -ok
F-105D -ok
F-105G -ok
F-111A - remove BLU-107 durandal.
F-4B/C/D/E/J -ok, E need remove some CBU and LGB.
F-5A -ok
F-8E -ok
KC-135 -ok
KC-130 -ok
Mig-17/J-5 - ac role score should be converted to CAP only. remove AG weapon. Mig-17PF may carry AA-1.
Mig-19/J-6 -ditto.
Mig-21F-13/PF/MF - ditto. remove AA-8.
O-1 -ok
RA-5C -ok
RF-101C -ok
RF-4C -ok
UH-1N -ok
Last edited by ccc on 2007-04-17 10:50:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 04:56:08

Cool CCC!

OK, now anyon knows limitations on red forces for this conflicts? also for Europe? I mean especially AA munitions limitations... dono maybe like removing AA-10B/C/D for MIG-29 in ODS... stuff like that. red missiles in Vietnam era... AA-8 not yet right? so only AA-2 for MIG-21s? what about MIG-19s? any AA missiles those days? same for some Blue forces... should i remove all LGBs from all ACs? what about AGM-62?

Also i read by S-M AIM-54 should be removed from F-14 because of Range limitations.... confirmed?

Thanx!
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 06:08:29

OK ODS and Europe... Mirage 2000, used? which type? probably needs to remove LGBs and Mica EM as it has quality almost like AIM-120 and i guess wasn't in service yet... ?

Also removed Tornado ADV ASRAAM and AIM-120, IDS removed Iris_T AA missile... not in service i assume.
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Post by ccc » 2007-04-17 06:15:46

i hawk - are you working on RV database for PMC ODS/Vnam right now?

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 06:35:36

NO... not really, just doing this loadout changes. I'm not a models/DB expert but hopefully when ITO2 is converted... maybe NP to also tweak ODS/Europe/Vietnam DB with models and such...

I assume you are asking because of all those new beauties you created... :)

So much to do and so short time. :(
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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-17 06:44:26

ccc, when I read that list you posted I just get that feeling that you listed all the aircrafts used in ODS/Vietnam, and NOT the aircrafts used in ODS/Vietnam that has actual historical loadouts in RV database. Am I correct?
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Post by ccc » 2007-04-17 06:53:16

right - your starting post asks for flyable.

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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-17 07:03:52

Okay I stand corrected :o

Edited the first post to say now: can someone please post the list of the flyable / working aircrafts with historical loadouts for
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Post by Closter » 2007-04-17 08:11:15

Sorry if I misunderstand all this. In my view, you are editing the contents of the terrain\objects dir for this theater. Doesn't it mean that all possible campaigns and TEs derived from there are not having a chance of using the edited loadouts, so handicapping the creativity of the TE (or campaign) makers?

Isn't it better simply editing the availability of munitions in each squadron for each given campaign? Then the scenary is more flexible for the creator, even if sometimes not as realistic...
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 08:47:36

Snake Man wrote:Okay I stand corrected :o

Edited the first post to say now: can someone please post the list of the flyable / working aircrafts with historical loadouts for
Now am confused S-M... what do you mean historical loadouts? if you are going to use a different theater for ODS1991 and ODS/OIF/fictional theaters then what's the problem? that's exactly what I'm doing in DB with F4Browse... just removing/editing the loadouts for existing ACs in DB... this way we will have ready ACs for use in theater... F-16s without AIM-120 and all other modern munitions is good enough right? :)

@Closter

For ODS i assume this won't be a problem as there going to be 2 or 3 theaters which only 1 (1991) will use the special DB (own objects folder)... the others will use the default Korean objects folder so no problem to create TEs. and for theaters like Europe and Vietnam which will have only one theater with one special objects folder (of course i dono and not my decision, just mentioning the worst case), one can always just replace the FALCON4.WLD file with the original one and get all munitions just like it is for Korea. for creating TE... it's a win-win anyway i guess. :)
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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-17 09:17:51

Closter wrote:In my view, you are editing the contents of the terrain\objects dir for this theater.
Negative. I'm editing <falconroot>\Theaters\<THEATER>\objects\ dir contents.
Doesn't it mean that all possible campaigns and TEs derived from there are not having a chance of using the edited loadouts
No, its the opposite. We edit the db to create historical loadouts which then can be used in throughout the theater.
Isn't it better simply editing the availability of munitions in each squadron for each given campaign?
Not really, its stupid then when ODS 1991 it says that your aircraft has capability to carry AIM-120 future weapon but now they are just ran out of from the squadron stores.
i_hawk wrote:Now am confused S-M... what do you mean historical loadouts?
Well for all theaters beginning from arbout 1965 Vietnam, 1985 Europe and 1991 ODS, there was no AIM-120 available. We remove it from the hardpoints, thats the "historical loadout" I'm talking about.
if you are going to use a different theater for ODS1991 and ODS/OIF/fictional theaters then what's the problem?
No problem, I never said there is a problem.
F-16s without AIM-120 and all other modern munitions is good enough right?
Yes, thats our goal.
one can always just replace the FALCON4.WLD file with the original one and get all munitions just like it is for Korea.
There is no need for that. The theaters will be build so end-user dont have to do any modifications.
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 09:23:55

i_hawk wrote:Cool CCC!

OK, now anyon knows limitations on red forces for this conflicts? also for Europe? I mean especially AA munitions limitations... dono maybe like removing AA-10B/C/D for MIG-29 in ODS... stuff like that. red missiles in Vietnam era... AA-8 not yet right? so only AA-2 for MIG-21s? what about MIG-19s? any AA missiles those days? same for some Blue forces... should i remove all LGBs from all ACs? what about AGM-62?

Also i read by S-M AIM-54 should be removed from F-14 because of Range limitations.... confirmed?

Thanx!
Only R-27R (AA-10A) was in MIG-29, and only AA-2 was in MIG-21 as I know. The Iraqi AF didn't have any MIG-19.

AGM-62 Walleye II used olny in A-6E.

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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 09:35:55

Anyboy knows this book?

Stan Morse
Gulf Air War Debrief


Image

It contains MANY useful info. I maked some photo with the useful pages for database. Is thre any store to upload the photos?

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 09:48:19

@molnibalage

Thanx for the info... going to remove AA-8 from MIG-21 as you said...

Also should i remove AGM-62 from F-18s? i think it's an old weapon so they probably had it available...

You can easily u/l photos to photobucket.com just register first...

@S-M cool! just wanted to make sure we talk on the same thing. :)

For now i done all the changes as in the old thread and added this also:

F-14s - Removed all GBU-x, and J weapons. not sure about AIM-54s.

Tornado ADV/IDS - Removed Asraam, Iris-T and AIM-120.

One thing haven't done yet, in Europe- F-16s with AIM-7s? is this correct?

One more, do you wish a CT# for all those ACs which CCC listed above for ODS/Europe/Vietnam?

Thanx.
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 09:56:14

"One thing haven't done yet, in Europe- F-16s with AIM-7s? is this correct? "

I'm well certain only Air National Guard F-16s had this weapon. I don't have any info that in peacetime this F-16s stationed in Europe, but in a fictional Cold War Conflict... (like in Tom Clancy's Red Storm)

"Also should i remove AGM-62 from F-18s? i think it's an old weapon so they probably had it available... "

Ops, I was wrong. I read just right now that F/A-18A/C used Walleye in the conflict.

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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 10:05:23

Here is one useful.

http://users.cwi.hu/sgupload/1176804454.jpg

And antoher example.

http://users.cwi.hu/sgupload/1176804490.jpg


These are two exaples, but it lists EVERY squadron with these original home base and home base in the conflict. Will I upload here all of them?
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 10:11:17

Well, don't remove this picture hehe... campaign builders will sure find it very interesting. :)
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 10:17:11

i_hawk wrote:Well, don't remove this picture hehe... campaign builders will sure find it very interesting. :)
Remain 27(!) page...

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Post by ccc » 2007-04-17 10:54:04

i updated my previous post - vietnam part.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 11:28:03

Cool!

Should F-4s carry AIM-7M? i guess in Vietnam era they had only older versions... true?
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 11:41:40

i_hawk wrote:Cool!

Should F-4s carry AIM-7M? i guess in Vietnam era they had only older versions... true?
In Vietnam carry AIM-7D and later E. The problem is that accuracy of this missiles are VERY low (about 10% or below this) so you have to change the radar data values for older variants of F-4s.

I think that almost impossible to make real data, becauase the Falcon can't handle this low values without using chaff but chaff dispernser weren't any side in Vietnam. You sould raise look down range, beam dist and min doppler values and testing. I think 30-40 missile launch need to confirm the new values.


So, upload here more pictures from the book? Because the datas of this book useful for Europe theater too.

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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 12:12:00

Well as far as i read... Hit ratio of AIM-7s in Vietnam war was truly very low... so maybe we have less trouble with this one... i'd say a 15% hit chances are good enough for this era... i assume most kills made by AIM-9s... and hooooo! here is another one needs to be confirmed for Vietnam... which types of AIM-9s were used? i assume the M still didn't exist... true?

I think you should keep posting pictures for Europe also... i guess campaign builders can use them anyway.

Thanx! :)
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 12:16:59

AIM-9B and D. Hit ratio was about the same that AIM-7. Lower for AIM-9B and a little higher for AIM-9D (20%).

i_hawk
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Post by i_hawk » 2007-04-17 12:22:31

molnibalage wrote:AIM-9B and D. Hit ratio was about the same that AIM-7. Lower for AIM-9B and a little higher for AIM-9D (20%).
Gonna be fun to fly i guess... chasing the small MIGs with guns only :lol:
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molnibalage
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Post by molnibalage » 2007-04-17 12:36:43

With gunpods only because the F-4B és F-4C didn't have internal gun...

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Post by Snake Man » 2007-04-17 12:37:46

While in one hand I just love the discussion whats going on about the specific weapons per theater, I hate the fact that its offtopic in the sense that I'm trying to learn information what aircrafts are already in RV database with historical loadouts. You guys now discuss what weapons to remove... which I already have done and nothing new there.

So is it safe to say by now that nobody of you know the RV db loadout specs if they are historical or not? :?

Anyways

I scanned SP4.2, RV, OF and AF databases through today and by some damned reason I didn't find the mystical "F-18 (ODS)" I remembered seeing, so also its quite safe to say I was dreaming. Damn this db business.
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