Open Falcon future, DataBase edits for theaters

[Snake Man]

About OpenFalcon database editing for theaters like historical loadouts to ODS 1991, Europe 1985, Vietnam era for example.

OpenFalcon had this leaked one version and now there appeared another version of it, I just cant remember what version some 4.3 or something like that I dont know.

1) Can I safely assume that OpenFalcon EXE development is now over?

2) Is there this Naldo dude still doing actively data edits to it?

3) If he/someone is, would there be any chance we could get them to add dedicated database entrys for us?

If there is no such chance, then I need to ask someone to do the OF db edits for the theaters or in the last resort I need to do them myself. Basically I hate to do that here in PMC codelabs because each and every time the source, ie OF, changes their database, we have to adjust and redo all the stuff we've done before. Thats just too much trouble and it would be excellent if the source would have the edits in the first place.

[ranger822]

If OF code development is ongoing and they need some debase help let me know. I have a pretty full plate.

Snakeman - what sort of stuff you want add, specifically? I haven't installed OF but I suppose it is basically about the same as Cobra/BMS. As long as F4Browser and LODEditor are functional it shouldn't be to difficult (I hope).

[Snake Man]

Just the realistic aircraft loadouts for the full range of F4 exes.

I'm dreaming that OF/RV guys would supply our theaters with historical aircrafts + loadouts, so I would only have to worry about the terrain + campaign.

I opened this topic for OF because if there is still someone doing data edits then we should suggest to him of adding few aircrafts/loadouts. I think RV already has many of the planes we need, at least I saw "F-18C ODS" in F4Browse today when I did Europe db editing, AF on the other hand is lost cause, we have to do all edits ourselves for there.

[Epic]

Snakeman

If database edits are required I can help out with that.

Epic

[Snake Man]

For starters, you can take a look at the lists I'm creating in the Europe 1985 and in ODS 1991 loadout topics. I want similar db edits to be done for OF database.

Are you sure we cannot ask the whoever-is-in-charge OF guy to add some aircrafts with correct loadouts for us?

[ranger822]

I concur Snakeman - it would be a mistake not to have some sort of coordinated effort here - I think that is what you have in mind. Lets get whoever is in charge or owns/controls thing to sign up for some sort of plan that make PMC work doable and not repeat the mistakes of the past.

[Kicker]

I can answer some of your questions for you Snake Man -

1) As of this time there is very little hope that any further exe-edits will be taking place in OF due to the LP/Atari C&D and IP issues, and the OF dev team have disbanded.

2) Naldo is still very active and involved in data edits, cockpit updates, skinning, etc, etc in Open Falcon, and there are a number of people myself included that are assisting him with this wherever we can. He has released 2 patches and 2 hotfixes for those patches, and another large non-exe-edit patch is currently being worked on.

3) I obviously cannot speak on behalf of Naldo, but I am certain that he would at least be willing and open to discussion on this.

If you would like to chat with the guys from Global Falcon, the forums can be found at www.globalfalcon.org/vb/forums/index.php and there is also a Global Falcon TeamSpeak server available for voice comms. The details may be found on the forums page linked above.

I do know that realism is paramount in the development of all non-exe-edit updates that have and may be released. No changes are even considered unless there is supporting evidence showing that they are accurate and realistic, and current aspects of the sim are being changed constantly to bring them closer to the real world.

A good example is the weapons loadouts you spoke of in one of the links above. All aircraft and loadouts are modelled as accurately as possible with the information available on the internet in those theatres included with the OF installation.

I hope this helps.

Wayne
aka Kicker

[Snake Man]

there are a number of people myself included that are assisting him with this wherever we can.

Excellent, nice to hear.

So can you confirm if there is already for example ODS 1991 loadouts available in OF?

[Kicker]

I can't confirm if any loadouts exist for any of the theaters other than the Korean and Balkan ones that install with OF. What I can confirm is that there is a lot of interest in the PMC theaters over at Global Falcon and that this may very well lead to collaboration in getting the PMC theaters working with realistic loadouts etc in OF.

I will have a chat with Naldo this evening and see what his thoughts on the idea are, and whether any material exists that could help with this or if this has already been worked on, and i'll post here again once I have done so.

Wayne
aka Kicker

[ranger822]

This goes along with this process so I will include here - Snakeman you might also consider a new thread to cover what I would call a compatibility chart for want of better words)

What would be very helpful is to establish exactly what the differences are in all the different executables in terms of features, what models, textures, cokcpits, UI, etc that make one database set compatible with another. I am having a hard time helping the RV and OF portings of ITO2. It sure would be helpful for the code people to come on line - at least for a short time to help define the parameters of individual exes that we could then perhaps make a simple flow chart of how to convert one database to another. The problem we have now is we have folks who are at least a generation away from the original builders - who are having to guess and learn what works and doesn't work - it is adding a lot of time to the process and may eventually lead to more frustration than finished products.

[Kicker]

Just an update. I haven't seen or heard from Naldo last night or today. Will try again tonight and report back if successful.

Wayne
aka Kicker

[Kicker]

I spoke at length with Naldo about this last night and he is definately open to the idea of collaborating to make the theatres workable in OF. He has asked me to establish exactly what it is that you would like to have done in OF Snake Man so that it can be discussed among the GF crew. I look forward to assisting with this where I can.

Wayne
aka Kicker

[Snake Man]

If it would be possible, I would like to have "new" aircrafts added into OF database with correct historical loadouts for Vietnam war (1965-), Europe cold war scenario 1985 and Operation Desert Storm 1991.

I said "new" aircrafts, which just mean to copy the existing database entries for the used aircrafts and tweak their loadouts according to historical weapons used in the time. Lets talk specifics, the loadout changes are as following:

I dont have the list for Vietnam right now.

Europe 1985
Hardpoints:
- A-10 removed CBU-97.
- B-1B removed JDAM, JSOW, CBU-97.
- B-52H removed AGM-142, (JDAM, JSOW), CBU-97.
- F-111F removed ?, AGM-130, GBU-28, BLU-107.
- F117 removed GBU-27. (JDAM?)
- F-14B removed JDAM.
- F-15C removed AIM-120B. Added AIM-7M.
- F-16CG/CJ removed AIM-120B, CBU-97, BLU-107, JDAM, JSOW. All LGBs.
- F-4ESK removed AGM-130.
- F-18C removed JDAM, JSOW, AIM-120B, AIM-9X and all LGBs, added AIM-7M.

Operation Desert Storm 1991
Hardpoints:
- A-10 removed CBU-97.
- AV-8B removed AIM-120, added AIM-7M.
- B-52H removed CBU-97, AGM-154 (JSOW/JDAM), AGM-142.
- F111F removed AGM-130.
- F117A removed (JDAM).
- F15C removed AIM-120, AIM-9X, added AIM-9M.
- F15E removed AIM-120, (JSOW/JDAM), AGM-130, AIM-9X, CBU-97, added AIM-9M.
- F16CJ removed AIM-120, AIM-9X, (JSOW/JDAM), CBU-97, all LGBs.
- F18C removed AIM-120, AIM-9X, (JSOW/JDAM).

JDAM: GBU-29, GBU-30, GBU-31, GBU-32, GBU-35, GBU-38.
JSOW: AGM-154.
GAM: GBU-36/B, GBU-37/B.

The above is by far a complete list, but that gives you some idea what we are after here.

The point being that if no dedicated database entries are in OF, then each and every time the OF developers release a patch changing the DB, my theater DB work is destroyed and I have to redo the stuff for the new database. But if OF has these dedicated db entries, then I never have to worry about editing them or copying objects/ directory into the theater dir.

[Kicker]

Roger that Snake Man. I'll chat with the guys over at GF tonight and we can take it from there. When I spoke with Naldo last night he was hesitant to agree to add new aircraft but was happy to consider the sort of changes to loadouts that you are proposing here. As before, i'll get back to you after we have a chat.

Wayne
aka Kicker

[Ratty]

Do you need assistance or do you have it all in hand?

[Snake Man]

Hi Ratty

Yes of course we need assistance to tweak the database. Basically its so easy to gather all the data into the forum post and from there we can implement it into the database, whether it be as this topic suggests or that we have to do it all over again each time there is update for the source database.

[Ratty]

Ok the way I see it is that you will need to create a completely independant database for each theater and set that in the theater definition files
e.g.
# default objects
objectdir terrdata\objects

Not sure but I think you did that for the ODS theater??? maybe others I cant remember.
This is the only way around it otherwise it would screw up the current DB.
My biggest worry is that it increases the size of the theater package....but no biggy really.
Any future mods done to the DB itself (OF's) will need to be duplicated in the extra theater if its a bug fix.

Is this what you wish to do Snakeman? oh and Hi

EDIT: By the look of it you only want to change the SSD file. Unfortunately you will need to duplicate the entire objects folder bar that file.

[Naldo]

Snake man...

I need from u a complete list of weapons changes needed.

thats all.

[Snake Man]

Ok the way I see it is that you will need to create a completely independant database
Not sure but I think you did that for the ODS theater???

Thats right.

My biggest worry is that it increases the size of the theater package

It doesnt, as we only include the WLD file at the moment. The other files are small also, the big ones are the LOD and TEX if I'm correct, which we dont include.

I need from u a complete list of weapons changes needed.

Well I dont have the complete list from A to Z, only what I've gathered from globalsecurity.org/fas.org by myself and from the forum posts here. The list of changes I posted above is the current one I have done myself, some guys might have posted more updated data to be changed in other topics.

[Ratty]

Ok I wasnt sure if you needed to include the entire objects folder or not.
What happens here? Do you just get the installer to copy across the missing files you dont include or does falcon look in both folders? AFAIK we never changed the code that handles this so your good to do it the way you know.
Not being a theater guy I'm not sure what happens.

Oh I see you want them deleted not just set to 0.

@Naldo
Its the WLD file that gets modded. Just open F4B go to the AC double click each HP and highlight and delete the weapons listed above. Then hit update and do the next HP. Then after you do each HP hit cancel cancel and move to the next AC.
If you look at the objects folder in detail view with date modified selected then you will see you have altered the WLD file. Zip it up and send it to snakeman. Restore your objects folder from your BACKUP and do the mods for the next theater.

[Snake Man]

Yes the installer copies the OF database directory completely over the theater dir, then it drops in the updated WLD file (because we do not have the dedicated database support now, so we have to do it ourselves), thats it, working database dir for our theater which we use in the TDF file.

Actually what I'm hoping that OF database would provide is a new CT records of the "duped" aircrafts which has the historically realistic loadout. Basically it only means we dont have to do database edits each and every time OF has some data changes in the database (I assume our work is trashed then and have to be redo for the new datafiles). This way OF could also advertise that it fully supports [insert long list of distinguished theaters here] theaters and therefore feel more appealing for the users.

This way when our installer installs the theater into OF, we dont have to copy any database files as we just say in the TDF that we use OF database and the campaign files use the new CT numbers for the historically realisitic loadout aircrafts.

I mean we will provide the list of available aircrafts and their tweaked loadouts here, but the master of OF (ie Naldo if I'm correct) needs to do the official changes in the OF database files, which we then can use after the next OF update.

I'm hoping to achieve same thing with RV too of course (if they did not already implement enough such aircrafts), AF is then another matter.

[Naldo]

NP,

We will make OF fully support the theaters and get this to work.
I as the rest of the OF community are behind this all the way.
From 4.5 this will be so.

When the list is compiled, let me know and I will do it in one big go and provide u with the list and files u need.

[Snake Man]

Excellent news, thank you!

We'll put together a list of all the stuff we need so OF theater users can enjoy the tweaked loadouts.

[Ratty]

master Naldo

[T_Rex]

Hey - who let Ratty in?

I thought there was some quality control on who registered here?

[Naldo]

master Naldo